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17-05.-2008, 01:58 AM
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#31 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
spindrift <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Some truly twatty pro-speeding comments below: > > http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3941769.ece > > The speed limit on thousands of residential roads will be reduced to > 20mph under government moves designed to cut road deaths by a third > over the next decade. > > Variable limits will be introduced on main roads near schools, with > digital signs ordering drivers to cut their speed to 20mph or less > when pupils are arriving or departing. > > Cameras that detect a vehicleís average speed will be used instead of > road humps to enforce the limit in some of the new 20mph zones. > > More than 3,000 people die on the roads each year, including > motorists, passengers, cyclists and pedestrians. The target, to be > reached by 2020, is expected to be set at about 2,000 deaths. > > > End quote. certinly be better than the present system with the odd 20 zone. got a 20 zone here, it's on the A308 trunk road though hampton, yet all the roads off it, are 30mph the A308 20mph zone is largly ingnored out of rush hour, and pointless during, you can comftably out walk the rush hour traffic. and the narrow streets off and around are far from safe at 30mph. roger -- www.rogermerriman.com |
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17-05.-2008, 04:46 AM
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#32 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
"spindrift" <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:471d86aa-d79c-4d56-9661-8126ed170c19@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > "Then let's set a target of a 95% reduction (and recognise that it > will be > unachievable) " > > > Not at all, in Denmark slower speeds as well as other measures have > resulted in cycling being four times safer than in the UK. > > Slashing the carnage on our roads is achievable, and essential. I'm certainly entering this discussion in the "wrong place", but as I can't easily see a better spot here goes;- Little point in more 20mph zones when (in my town) the present ones are absolutely ignored and quite unenforced. I'm very happy to see a target of "nil deaths" on our roads - but until we can find (or seriousely attempt) some way of pacifying the mad aggression we ALL encounter as road users this figure is unachievable. Simple, obvious and very true. John |
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17-05.-2008, 08:54 PM
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#33 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
On Fri, 16 May 2008 20:46:15 +0100, John Clayton wrote:
> "spindrift" <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:471d86aa-d79c-4d56-9661-8126ed170c19@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... >> "Then let's set a target of a 95% reduction (and recognise that it >> will be >> unachievable) " >> >> >> Not at all, in Denmark slower speeds as well as other measures have >> resulted in cycling being four times safer than in the UK. >> >> Slashing the carnage on our roads is achievable, and essential. > > > > I'm certainly entering this discussion in the "wrong place", but as I can't > easily see a better spot here goes;- > > Little point in more 20mph zones when (in my town) the present ones are > absolutely ignored and quite unenforced. > I'm very happy to see a target of "nil deaths" on our roads - but until we > can find (or seriousely attempt) some way of pacifying the mad aggression we > ALL encounter as road users this figure is unachievable. > Simple, obvious and very true. We know the way; it's been posted here before. Long gaol terms, suspended with conditions. Second offense, and plod takes them straight there - they've broken the terms, no trial necessary. And car crushing, irrespective of the owner/keeper/driver. Quite simply, the cost of error must be high enough that ther eroors decrease. |
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17-05.-2008, 09:48 PM
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#34 |
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
Sir Jeremy wrote:
> On 16 May, 13:51, Mark McNeill <markonnewsgro...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Response to Rob Morley >> >>> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/t...y_sectors/trans... >> "The Government is preparing a road safety strategy for the next decade >> and will publish proposals in a consultation document this year. Unlike >> previous strategies, it is expected to include a specific target to >> reduce road deaths and a series of tough measures. >> >> In addition to more 20mph zones, measures are likely to include a lower >> drink-drive limit, six penalty points for serious breaches of the speed >> limit and harsher penalties for not wearing seatbelts." >> >> This would of course be a perfect time for the government to introduce a >> MHL: any cyclists' lives saved by introducing 20mph speed limits would >> thereafter be cited as evidence of the marvellous efficacy of h*lm*ts. >> </cynic> >> >> "Read all 172 comments" >> >> Oh, sure, that's *just* how I'll be spending my day off... >> >> -- >> Mark, UK >> "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always >> so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." > > > The variable limits outside schools was an ABD idea years ago so glad > to see the Government agreeing. I know of one school where it has been in operation for more than a decade. There are probably many others. It seems to work fine. Who would be against it (as long as the lower limits did not operate at silly times, like Sundays in August or New year's Day)? |
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17-05.-2008, 09:49 PM
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#35 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
spindrift wrote:
> Nobody is saying close all the roads, nor will drivers have to have a > man with a red flag walking in front of the car. > 95% of accidents involve driver error according to ROSPA. Fatal RTA's > are invariably avoidable. Have you thought of a way of stopping people from making mistakes? Want to share it, or is the patent pending? |
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17-05.-2008, 09:50 PM
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#36 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
David Hansen wrote:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 05:58:51 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be Sir > Jeremy <pete.aron@virgin.net> wrote this:- > >> The variable limits outside schools was an ABD idea years ago so glad >> to see the Government agreeing. > > Really. If it was then their "idea" was no-doubt no speed limit most > of the time and only one at school in/out times. That is rather > different to the variable speed limits that are set up outside > schools and for which the ABD can take no credit. > >> Compulsory helmets on cycles for children - only a matter of time now. > > Why should a cycle used by children wear a helmet? Is there a proposal that bikes should wear helmets? |
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17-05.-2008, 09:55 PM
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#37 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> Sir Jeremy <pete.aron@virgin.net> said: >> Adds up to the same thing despite your typically ant-car spin > Um, no it doesn't. And anti-ABD is not anti-car, ABD are extremist > militant cagers. > ABD's stance is that anything that interferes with them going fast > is, by default, bad. Their willingness to tolerate VSLs round > schools was, in my view, simply a way of opposing slower speeds > around schools, since they didn't believe it would happen. But it DOES happen already. Did you not know that? Maybe it's a pilot, maybe not, but there is at least one case of a variable limit ouitside a school that can be instanced (on the A21 trunk road in Hurst Green, Sussex). <http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.014983,0.472176&spn=0.005029,0.010042&t=h&z=17> The limit (30 normally, IIRC) reduces to 20 at school opening and closing times. It's been like that for well over ten years. I assume it is still operating, but I haven't been that way for several years. |
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18-05.-2008, 01:20 AM
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#38 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
Sir Jeremy <pete.aron@virgin.net> wrote:
> On 16 May, 15:56, spindrift <newty...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > The ABD, like safespeeding, is an irrelevance. Fewer than 3000 > > members, linked to extreme-right groups, given to hysterical whining > > about law enforcement. > > > > Snip Sir Jeremy's bollocks. ;-) Luke -- Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk> |
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18-05.-2008, 02:50 AM
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#39 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
On Fri, 16 May 2008 15:09:17 +0100, budstaff wrote:
> > "spindrift" <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:9cb4f913-a3b5-4873-ad51-50ada34219cd@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com... >> 2000 road deaths is the target- Sweden's stated aim is to achieve zero >> road deaths. We've a long way to go. >> >> >> 6 points for "excessive" speeding is a step in the right direction, but >> the pro-speeding drivers comparing road safety measure to "Stalinism" is >> laughable. > > Don't get me wrong, I'm pro reducing speed limits near schools (and any > road safety measure which is likely to reduce accidents), but I'm rather > glad that we have a long way to go to match the Swedes. The only way that > we could achieve a target of zero road deaths would be to close all the > roads - to bikes 'n'all. > > Zero targets are ludicrous propagandism. A bit like "zero tolerance"? I don't think so. A target of zero road deaths is laudable. -- ___ _______ ___ ___ ___ __ ____ / _ \/ __/ _ | / _ \ / _ \/ _ |/ / / / / / // / _// __ |/ // / / ___/ __ / /_/ / /__ /____/___/_/ |_/____/ /_/ /_/ |_\____/____/ |
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18-05.-2008, 03:16 AM
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#40 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
Dead Paul wrote:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 15:09:17 +0100, budstaff wrote: > >> "spindrift" <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:9cb4f913-a3b5-4873-ad51-50ada34219cd@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com... >>> 2000 road deaths is the target- Sweden's stated aim is to achieve zero >>> road deaths. We've a long way to go. >>> >>> >>> 6 points for "excessive" speeding is a step in the right direction, but >>> the pro-speeding drivers comparing road safety measure to "Stalinism" is >>> laughable. >> Don't get me wrong, I'm pro reducing speed limits near schools (and any >> road safety measure which is likely to reduce accidents), but I'm rather >> glad that we have a long way to go to match the Swedes. The only way that >> we could achieve a target of zero road deaths would be to close all the >> roads - to bikes 'n'all. >> >> Zero targets are ludicrous propagandism. > > A bit like "zero tolerance"? I don't think so. > > A target of zero road deaths is laudable. It's a laudable preference, but not a realistic target. Targets are set at achievable levels. Zero isn't achievable (people will always make mistakes, pedestrians will always dash across roads without looking or whilst drunk and there will always be drivers who die at the wheel from heart attacks). |
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19-05.-2008, 12:04 AM
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#41 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
In message <ItWdnYiTWet8vbLVnZ2dnUVZ8v3inZ2d@pipex.net>, JNugent
<JN@NPPTG.com> wrote: > It's a laudable preference, but not a realistic target. Targets are set > at achievable levels. > > Zero isn't achievable (people will always make mistakes, pedestrians > will always dash across roads without looking or whilst drunk Not if fences force them to use bridges, or gates that are automatically locked when there are moving vehicles about. > and there > will always be drivers who die at the wheel from heart attacks). Variable speed limiters, automatic steering, dead man's handle, and a driver's vigilance device to stop the vehicle if the driver is incapacitated; just like a train. |
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19-05.-2008, 02:20 AM
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#42 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
"Timothy Baldwin" <T.E.Baldwin99@members.leeds.ac.uk> wrote in message news:TPqdndn4uoHl2K3VnZ2dnUVZ8qqlnZ2d@pipex.net... > In message <ItWdnYiTWet8vbLVnZ2dnUVZ8v3inZ2d@pipex.net>, JNugent > <JN@NPPTG.com> wrote: > >> It's a laudable preference, but not a realistic target. Targets are set >> at achievable levels. >> >> Zero isn't achievable (people will always make mistakes, pedestrians >> will always dash across roads without looking or whilst drunk > > Not if fences force them to use bridges, or gates that are automatically > locked when there are moving vehicles about. > >> and there >> will always be drivers who die at the wheel from heart attacks). > > Variable speed limiters, automatic steering, dead man's handle, and a > driver's vigilance device to stop the vehicle if the driver is > incapacitated; just like a train. Any one of which could malfunction, unless 100% reliability is achievable which I doubt. |
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19-05.-2008, 02:26 AM
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#43 |
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Guest
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
On Sun, 18 May 2008 18:20:14 +0100, "Adam Lea" <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote: >> Variable speed limiters, automatic steering, dead man's handle, and a >> driver's vigilance device to stop the vehicle if the driver is >> incapacitated; just like a train. > >Any one of which could malfunction, unless 100% reliability is achievable >which I doubt. And with a car they, especially any forced braking device, would be more likely to *cause* an accident than *prevent* one. Cars and trains are very different things indeed. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
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19-05.-2008, 03:48 AM
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#44 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: 20mph zones coming.
On Sun, 18 May 2008 18:20:14 +0100 someone who may be "Adam Lea"
<asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote this:- >> Variable speed limiters, automatic steering, dead man's handle, and a >> driver's vigilance device to stop the vehicle if the driver is >> incapacitated; just like a train. > >Any one of which could malfunction, unless 100% reliability is achievable >which I doubt. 100% reliability is not achievable. However, if the systems are designed to fail safe, which vital railway systems are, then one can get as close to 100% safety in that particular aspect as makes little difference. For instance, due to the design of railway brakes failure of these systems is as close to zero as makes no difference [1]. There is also the question of only doing enough. For example railway speed limits are only enforced automatically in certain circumstances, for example where the speed limit is reduced by a large amount [2]. If there is a small reduction in speed limit then, because the train will still remain on the rails if the driver does nothing, there is no automatic enforcement. However, all trains are now fitted with data recorders which record, amongst many other things, speed and location. These data recorders are regularly downloaded by inspectors and checked for obedience to speed limits and other things. Those drivers considered at risk have their data recorders downloaded more often. Drivers can also encounter a lineside speed check anywhere, they use similar devices to those used on the roads and there are no warning signs to warn drivers,though like all lineside staff those checking speeds will be wearing orange clothing. There are also numerous places where the speed of every train is recorded by the signalbox. On the roads steering is a possible problem. However, provided the systems work together the problem disappears. For example if the driver fails to react to a vigilance alert the system must not just apply the brakes, it must also steer the car around any bend until it stops. Should be easy enough to arrange. [1] I can think of one brake failure in the past decade, two in the 1980s and two in the 1970s. [2]in general. There are lines where the train speed limit is constantly compared to the line limit and the brakes applied if the line limit is exceeded. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
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