Re: Red lights jumping - interesting survey

Squashme

On 17 May, 19:57, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
> Tony Dragon wrote:
> >Squashmewrote:
> >> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>> Doug wrote:
> >>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
> >>>>>>>> Piccadilly
> >>>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
> >>>>>>> passing the red
> >>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going
> >>>>> through red
> >>>>> lights?
> >>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>
> >>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>>> red lights?
> >>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>
> >> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> >> course.
>
> >> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> >> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>
> >> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> >> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> >> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> >> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>
> >> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> >> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> >> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> >> favour," he said."
>
> >>http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...
>
> > Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.
>
> Agree with it?
>
> He doesn't recognise the concept.

To self-quote from a couple of years ago on uk.legal:-

"As a cyclist, I am getting more and more angered by cyclists ignoring
red lights at pedestrian crossings, where the cars have managed to
stop
in time, and where I am waiting to wheel my bike across the road. Just
shouting "Buy a car, you [insert favoured term]" does not satisfy any
more. If I decide to walk out on to the crossing, when I have a green
man signal in my favour, in front of a speeding cyclist who is
obviously intent on not stopping, am I breaking a law? The cyclist is,
after all, intentionally intimidating me and others from crossing
(threatening behaviour?). And yes, I do realise that both of us may be
hurt.
Is there a right of self-defence in this situation? "

Also happens when I am walking across sans bike, of course.

Squashme

On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
> > On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>>>> How can it be avictimlesscrime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>> lights?
> >>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>
> >>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>> red lights?
> >> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
> > In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> > course.
> > "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> > hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
> > Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> > driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> > limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> > Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
> > "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> > collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> > north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> > favour," he said."
> >http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...
>
> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?

Does speed kill?

Squashme

On 17 May, 19:51, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
> > On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the samespeed.
> >>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>> lights?
> >>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>
> >>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>> red lights?
> >> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>
> > In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. Butspeeddoesn't kill, of
> > course.
>
> > "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light atspeed,
> > hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>
> > Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> > driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> > limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> > Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>
> > "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> > collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> > north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> > favour," he said."
>
> >http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...
>
> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.
>

Which law are they breaking?

Tony Dragon

Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 19:51, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Squashme wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the samespeed.
>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>>>> lights?
>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>>> red lights?
>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. Butspeeddoesn't kill, of
>>> course.
>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light atspeed,
>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>>> favour," he said."
>>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...
>> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.
>>
>
> Which law are they breaking?

Does it make any difference?
I will ask you as well.
Do you agree with cyclist breaking the law?
Please try to answer in a coherent way so there is no mistake in your
answer.

--
Tony the Dragon

Squashme

On 18 May, 16:33, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
> > On 17 May, 19:51, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Squashme wrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the samespeed.
> >>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>>>> lights?
> >>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
> >>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>>>> red lights?
> >>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
> >>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. Butspeeddoesn't kill, of
> >>> course.
> >>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light atspeed,
> >>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
> >>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> >>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> >>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> >>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
> >>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> >>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> >>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> >>> favour," he said."
> >>>http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...
> >> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.
>
> > Which law are they breaking?
>
> Does it make any difference?

Yes it does.

> I will ask you as well.

I thought that you were already.

> Do you agree with cyclist breaking the law?

Do you agree with motorists breaking the law?

> Please try to answer in a coherent way so there is no mistake in your
> answer.

Coherent, with no mistakes? I'd stand out on uk.transport.

Squashme

On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
> > On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>> lights?
> >>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>
> >>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>> red lights?
> >> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
> > In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> > course.
> > "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> > hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
> > Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> > driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> > limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> > Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
> > "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> > collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> > north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> > favour," he said."
> >http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...
>
> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?

Nobody seems to be willing to defend the driver, despite your plea.
Why don't you have a go? You must have some sympathy for a fellow
motorist, who had apparently been as innocent as the majority of
drivers up to that unfortunate moment.

JNugent

Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
>> Squashme wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> How can it be avictimlesscrime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>>>> lights?
>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>>> red lights?
>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
>>> course.
>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>>> favour," he said."
>>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...

>> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?

> Does speed kill?

No, otherwise I'd have died the last time I flew.

Is anyone defending the driver's actions?

JNugent

Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 19:57, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
>> Tony Dragon wrote:
>>> Squashmewrote:
>>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
>>>>>>>>>> Piccadilly
>>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
>>>>>>>>> passing the red
>>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going
>>>>>>> through red
>>>>>>> lights?
>>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>>>> red lights?
>>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
>>>> course.
>>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
>>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>>>> favour," he said."
>>>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...

>>> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.

>> Agree with it?
>> He doesn't recognise the concept.

> To self-quote from a couple of years ago on uk.legal:-

> "As a cyclist, I am getting more and more angered by cyclists ignoring
> red lights at pedestrian crossings, where the cars have managed to
> stop
> in time, and where I am waiting to wheel my bike across the road. Just
> shouting "Buy a car, you [insert favoured term]" does not satisfy any
> more. If I decide to walk out on to the crossing, when I have a green
> man signal in my favour, in front of a speeding cyclist who is
> obviously intent on not stopping, am I breaking a law? The cyclist is,
> after all, intentionally intimidating me and others from crossing
> (threatening behaviour?). And yes, I do realise that both of us may be
> hurt.
> Is there a right of self-defence in this situation? "

> Also happens when I am walking across sans bike, of course.

Haven't you (more recently) defended RLJ-jumping by cyclists at
junctions? And footway-cycling?

Squashme

On 18 May, 17:19, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
> > On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
> >> Squashme wrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>> How can it be avictimlesscrime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>>>> lights?
> >>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
> >>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>>>> red lights?
> >>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
> >>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> >>> course.
> >>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> >>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
> >>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> >>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> >>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> >>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
> >>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> >>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> >>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> >>> favour," he said."
> >>>http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...
> >> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?
> > Does speed kill?
>
> No, otherwise I'd have died the last time I flew.

Number 39 on standard response list.
>
> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?

Yes, you are now. You defend her speed.

JNugent

Squashme wrote:
> On 18 May, 16:33, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Squashme wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 19:51, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Squashme wrote:
>>>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the samespeed.
>>>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>>>>>> lights?
>>>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>>>>> red lights?
>>>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. Butspeeddoesn't kill, of
>>>>> course.
>>>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light atspeed,
>>>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>>>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>>>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>>>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>>>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>>>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>>>>> favour," he said."
>>>>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...
>>>> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.
>>> Which law are they breaking?
>> Does it make any difference?
>
> Yes it does.
>
>> I will ask you as well.
>
> I thought that you were already.
>
>> Do you agree with cyclist breaking the law?
>
> Do you agree with motorists breaking the law?
>
>> Please try to answer in a coherent way so there is no mistake in your
>> answer.

> Coherent, with no mistakes? I'd stand out on uk.transport.

Then let me add my voice to the chorus of those asking you the same
question. But, to be fair to you, let's make it clearer.

The laws being spoken of here are the traffic rules which apply to
road-users. Examples include (but are not limited to) the requirement to
stop at red traffic lights (whether at pelicon crossings or road
junctions), to not travel in or on a vehicle along a footway or area
reserved for pedestrian use (especially in central urban areas) and the
requirement to comply with one way working (whether on dual carriageways
or in one-way-street systems). There are others.

I don't think anyone was asking you about armed robbery, domestic
violence, high treason or buggery.

JNugent

Squashme wrote:
> On 18 May, 17:19, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
>> Squashme wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
>>>> Squashme wrote:
>>>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>> How can it be avictimlesscrime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>>>>>> lights?
>>>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>>>>> red lights?
>>>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
>>>>> course.
>>>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
>>>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>>>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>>>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>>>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>>>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>>>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>>>>> favour," he said."
>>>>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...

>>>> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?

>>> Does speed kill?

>> No, otherwise I'd have died the last time I flew.

> Number 39 on standard response list.

Let me add a few more, in reminding you that soundbites and ad-slogans
are no substitute for research, proper scientific conclusions and policies.

Guinness is NOT necessarily good for you, Bounty is NOT the taste of
paradise, British Rail ISN'T getting there, Roses DON'T grow on you and
I DON'T bet that you drink Carling Black Label.

Advertisng slogans may be memorable, but that doesn't mean that they
tell you anything important. "Speed Kills" is right up there with "Beanz
Meanz Heinz".

>> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?

> Yes, you are now. You defend her speed.

I don't. Her speed was illegal. Elsewhere it would have been safe, but
in the Talgarth Road, passing through a red traffic light, it clearly
wasn't.

Squashme

On 18 May, 17:35, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
> Squashmewrote:
> > On 18 May, 17:19, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
> >>Squashmewrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
> >>>>Squashmewrote:
> >>>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> How can it be avictimlesscrime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>>>>>> lights?
> >>>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >>>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >>>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
> >>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>>>>>> red lights?
> >>>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >>>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >>>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >>>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >>>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
> >>>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> >>>>> course.
> >>>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> >>>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
> >>>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> >>>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> >>>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> >>>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
> >>>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> >>>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> >>>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> >>>>> favour," he said."
> >>>>>http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...
> >>>> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?
> >>> Does speed kill?
> >> No, otherwise I'd have died the last time I flew.
> > Number 39 on standard response list.
>
> Let me add a few more, in reminding you that soundbites and ad-slogans
> are no substitute for research, proper scientific conclusions and policies.
>
> Guinness is NOT necessarily good for you, Bounty is NOT the taste of
> paradise, British Rail ISN'T getting there, Roses DON'T grow on you and
> I DON'T bet that you drink Carling Black Label.
>
> Advertisng slogans may be memorable, but that doesn't mean that they
> tell you anything important. "Speed Kills" is right up there with "Beanz
> Meanz Heinz".
>
> >> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?
> > Yes, you are now. You defend her speed.
>
> I don't. Her speed was illegal. Elsewhere it would have been safe

So you condone breaking the speed limit "elsewhere", as long as the
driver thinks that it is safe. As this motorist thought that it was
safe, until she killed the cyclist. Speed doesn't kill, until it does.
If the motorist had gone through the lights at the speed at which a
cyclist travels, she would not have killed.

Squashme

On 18 May, 17:27, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
> Squashmewrote:
> > On 18 May, 16:33, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>Squashmewrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 19:51, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>>Squashmewrote:
> >>>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the samespeed.
> >>>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>>>>>> lights?
> >>>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >>>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >>>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
> >>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>>>>>> red lights?
> >>>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >>>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >>>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >>>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >>>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
> >>>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. Butspeeddoesn't kill, of
> >>>>> course.
> >>>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light atspeed,
> >>>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
> >>>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> >>>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> >>>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> >>>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
> >>>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> >>>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> >>>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> >>>>> favour," he said."
> >>>>>http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...
> >>>> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.
> >>> Which law are they breaking?
> >> Does it make any difference?
>
> > Yes it does.
>
> >> I will ask you as well.
>
> > I thought that you were already.
>
> >> Do you agree with cyclist breaking the law?
>
> > Do you agree with motorists breaking the law?
>
> >> Please try to answer in a coherent way so there is no mistake in your
> >> answer.
> > Coherent, with no mistakes? I'd stand out on uk.transport.
>
> Then let me add my voice to the chorus of those asking you the same
> question. But, to be fair to you, let's make it clearer.

CHORUS!! There's nobody out there, Mr N. You're hearing those voices
again.

>
> The laws being spoken of here are the traffic rules which apply to
> road-users. Examples include (but are not limited to) the requirement to
> stop at red traffic lights (whether at pelicon crossings or road
> junctions), to not travel in or on a vehicle along a footway or area
> reserved for pedestrian use (especially in central urban areas) and the
> requirement to comply with one way working (whether on dual carriageways
> or in one-way-street systems). There are others.

Why do motorists hypocritically pretend that they are concerned about
what cyclists do? Just a smokescreen. Cyclists can take lessons from
motorists if and when motorists ever get control of the carnage and
destruction that they produce, by their "legal" actions, let alone by
their stupidity, impatience and aggression. Who is much more likely to
kill you, a decent, law-abiding motorist who has an "accident", or a
RLJing, pavement-pounding, contraflow cyclist from hell?

Strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

>
> I don't think anyone was asking you about armed robbery, domestic
> violence, high treason or buggery.

1 Never
2 Never
3 Never
4 Tried once, but my hat fell off.

JNugent

Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <J...@NPPTG.com> wrote:
>> Squashme wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>>>> lights?
>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>>> red lights?
>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
>>> course.
>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>>> favour," he said."
>>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...r.var.1822947.m...

>> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?

> Nobody seems to be willing to defend the driver, despite your plea.

What plea?

I'm merely wondering what windmill it is that you are tilting at.

Sory about ending the sentence with a preposition.