Training Qs: intervals, blowing up, fat...

Bret

On May 12, 9:07*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.

This sounds like you want to train your strength. I suggest that
instead of sprint training, you train the areas that limit your
chances to contest the sprint. A variety of intervals that train
aerobic capacity, sustained hard efforts above AT, and recovery would
help more.

As someone with a good sprint, I never felt a need to train it. I'm in
poor shape right now, but the sprint is mostly still there.

> Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).

The training above is compatible with CX. Lots of criterium
specialists do very well at CX.

For the diet, eliminate junk food and any other food that leads to
bingeing behavior. It helps to have a very standard diet day to day
that is easy to stick to. When I'm in training it goes something like
this:

7:00am - coffee with one piece of toast
10:30am - yogurt and muselli to fuel my noon ride
12:00pm - noon ride
2:00pm - moderate lunch
8:00pm - moderate dinner

The key points are fueling properly for the noon ride, refueling
moderately after the ride, and then having a period between lunch and
dinner where I'm willing to endure some hunger.

I used to quit drinking on New Years day every year and wouldn't touch
a drop until I decided that the serious part of my racing season was
over. There is no serious part any more.

Bret

Scott

On May 13, 3:16*pm, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 12, 9:07*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track..
>
> This sounds like you want to train your strength. I suggest that
> instead of sprint training, you train the areas that limit your
> chances to contest the sprint. A variety of intervals that train
> aerobic capacity, sustained hard efforts above AT, and recovery would
> help more.
>
> As someone with a good sprint, I never felt a need to train it. I'm in
> poor shape right now, but the sprint is mostly still there.
>
> > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> The training above *is compatible with CX. Lots of criterium
> specialists do very well at CX.
>
> For the diet, eliminate junk food and any other food that leads to
> bingeing behavior. It helps to have a very standard diet day to day
> that is easy to stick to. When I'm in training it goes something like
> this:
>
> 7:00am - coffee with one piece of toast
> 10:30am - yogurt and muselli to fuel my noon ride
> 12:00pm - noon ride
> 2:00pm - moderate lunch
> 8:00pm - moderate dinner
>
> The key points are fueling properly for the noon ride, refueling
> moderately after the ride, and then having a period between lunch and
> dinner where I'm willing to endure some hunger.
>
> I used to quit drinking on New Years day every year and wouldn't touch
> a drop until I decided that the serious part of my racing season was
> over. There is no serious part any more.
>
> Bret

You didn't mention the bottle of wine you share with your lovely wife
with nearly every 'moderate dinner', or was that just a story you told
me that day to make me feel better about having had a few beers the
night before a cx race?

Bret

On May 13, 3:34*pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 13, 3:16*pm, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 12, 9:07*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
>
> > This sounds like you want to train your strength. I suggest that
> > instead of sprint training, you train the areas that limit your
> > chances to contest the sprint. A variety of intervals that train
> > aerobic capacity, sustained hard efforts above AT, and recovery would
> > help more.
>
> > As someone with a good sprint, I never felt a need to train it. I'm in
> > poor shape right now, but the sprint is mostly still there.
>
> > > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> > The training above *is compatible with CX. Lots of criterium
> > specialists do very well at CX.
>
> > For the diet, eliminate junk food and any other food that leads to
> > bingeing behavior. It helps to have a very standard diet day to day
> > that is easy to stick to. When I'm in training it goes something like
> > this:
>
> > 7:00am - coffee with one piece of toast
> > 10:30am - yogurt and muselli to fuel my noon ride
> > 12:00pm - noon ride
> > 2:00pm - moderate lunch
> > 8:00pm - moderate dinner
>
> > The key points are fueling properly for the noon ride, refueling
> > moderately after the ride, and then having a period between lunch and
> > dinner where I'm willing to endure some hunger.
>
> > I used to quit drinking on New Years day every year and wouldn't touch
> > a drop until I decided that the serious part of my racing season was
> > over. There is no serious part any more.
>
> > Bret
>
> You didn't mention the bottle of wine you share with your lovely wife
> with nearly every 'moderate dinner', or was that just a story you told
> me that day to make me feel better about having had a few beers the
> night before a cx race?

We still do that. Scratch the word "nearly". I wasn't going to give
Ryan any drinking advice. That would be like giving Tom Boonen
sprinting advice.

Bret

Scott

On May 13, 3:42*pm, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 13, 3:34*pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 13, 3:16*pm, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 12, 9:07*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > > > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
>
> > > This sounds like you want to train your strength. I suggest that
> > > instead of sprint training, you train the areas that limit your
> > > chances to contest the sprint. A variety of intervals that train
> > > aerobic capacity, sustained hard efforts above AT, and recovery would
> > > help more.
>
> > > As someone with a good sprint, I never felt a need to train it. I'm in
> > > poor shape right now, but the sprint is mostly still there.
>
> > > > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > > > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > > > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > > > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> > > The training above *is compatible with CX. Lots of criterium
> > > specialists do very well at CX.
>
> > > For the diet, eliminate junk food and any other food that leads to
> > > bingeing behavior. It helps to have a very standard diet day to day
> > > that is easy to stick to. When I'm in training it goes something like
> > > this:
>
> > > 7:00am - coffee with one piece of toast
> > > 10:30am - yogurt and muselli to fuel my noon ride
> > > 12:00pm - noon ride
> > > 2:00pm - moderate lunch
> > > 8:00pm - moderate dinner
>
> > > The key points are fueling properly for the noon ride, refueling
> > > moderately after the ride, and then having a period between lunch and
> > > dinner where I'm willing to endure some hunger.
>
> > > I used to quit drinking on New Years day every year and wouldn't touch
> > > a drop until I decided that the serious part of my racing season was
> > > over. There is no serious part any more.
>
> > > Bret
>
> > You didn't mention the bottle of wine you share with your lovely wife
> > with nearly every 'moderate dinner', or was that just a story you told
> > me that day to make me feel better about having had a few beers the
> > night before a cx race?
>
> We still do that. Scratch the word "nearly". I wasn't going to give
> Ryan any drinking advice. That would be like giving Tom Boonen
> sprinting advice.
>
> Bret- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

or, Tom Kunich!

Bret

On May 13, 3:53*pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 13, 3:42*pm, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 13, 3:34*pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 13, 3:16*pm, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On May 12, 9:07*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > > > > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start ridingtrack.
>
> > > > This sounds like you want to train your strength. I suggest that
> > > > instead of sprint training, you train the areas that limit your
> > > > chances to contest the sprint. A variety of intervals that train
> > > > aerobic capacity, sustained hard efforts above AT, and recovery would
> > > > help more.
>
> > > > As someone with a good sprint, I never felt a need to train it. I'm in
> > > > poor shape right now, but the sprint is mostly still there.
>
> > > > > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > > > > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > > > > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > > > > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> > > > The training above *is compatible with CX. Lots of criterium
> > > > specialists do very well at CX.
>
> > > > For the diet, eliminate junk food and any other food that leads to
> > > > bingeing behavior. It helps to have a very standard diet day to day
> > > > that is easy to stick to. When I'm in training it goes something like
> > > > this:
>
> > > > 7:00am - coffee with one piece of toast
> > > > 10:30am - yogurt and muselli to fuel my noon ride
> > > > 12:00pm - noon ride
> > > > 2:00pm - moderate lunch
> > > > 8:00pm - moderate dinner
>
> > > > The key points are fueling properly for the noon ride, refueling
> > > > moderately after the ride, and then having a period between lunch and
> > > > dinner where I'm willing to endure some hunger.
>
> > > > I used to quit drinking on New Years day every year and wouldn't touch
> > > > a drop until I decided that the serious part of my racing season was
> > > > over. There is no serious part any more.
>
> > > > Bret
>
> > > You didn't mention the bottle of wine you share with your lovely wife
> > > with nearly every 'moderate dinner', or was that just a story you told
> > > me that day to make me feel better about having had a few beers the
> > > night before a cx race?
>
> > We still do that. Scratch the word "nearly". I wasn't going to give
> > Ryan any drinking advice. That would be like giving Tom Boonen
> > sprinting advice.
>
> > Bret- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> or, Tom Kunich!

It would be like giving Kunich drama queen advice.

Off The Back

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage

The good news is that by doing the former the right way, you will
undoubtedly also get the latter for free.

And by the right way, I simply mean keep a good diet. "Eat food, not too
much, mostly plants" -- Ben Franlin. (Don't forget that hops are plants!)
And with your additional riding, you'll run a small calorie deficit, so that
by CX season you'll have shed most of that extra weight.

> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.

More good news... training your sprint is fast and easy (relative to upping
your aerobic power or anaerobic capacity). Despite what Robert says, do one
sprint work-out a week with 10-15 full-out bursts of 10-15 seconds each with
adequate recovery in-between. Takes less than an hour. As long as you still
have at least 5-10 hours a week for your high-aerobic-zone work, then work
on your sprint also, if for no other reason than it will be fun when you go
around Burnaby really fast.

> Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
> Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
> get to the crit on time.
> -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
> riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
>
> The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
> activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?

I don't know what you mean by fairly long, but as Ben Franklin also once
said, "Fat burns best in a hot flame", meaning you actually burn more fat at
higher power output. You'll have to experiement to find your own... ,err,
sweet spot, where you do the most work (in the physics sense) for your
entire training session, ...if the goal is to burn fat.

> I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
> (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> ho!)

If you have limited time, 25 kph rides are indeed junk, unless you need them
for recovery. Koach K is korrect that you need easy recovery rides, but only
after you've really taxed yourself with your hard rides.

> I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> historically made me strong fast.

Personally, I wouldn't do those until your threshold W/kg has started to
level off. If you do these 60-90 sec intervals all-out, they can really
compromise your training for several days afterward. On the other hand, if
you actually enjoy these kind of intervals, then you either aren't doing
them hard enough, or you are sick in the head.

> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous?

No.

> Am I sabotaging the CX season with my devotion to intervals,
> when I should just work on hour-power or something?

No. Whether you do those 60-90 second intervals, or aerobic-threshold work
(e.g., sweet-spot training), you will improve substantially.

> Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless?

Unless you are training your sprint to beat Andrew Randell or Zach Bell,
then it shouldn't consume much of your time or energy, so it won't interfere
with CX.

> I don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.

....which is precisely why improving your threshold W/kg will get you to the
front of those races.

BTW, I'm NOT saying that you can't fine-tune your fitness toward one kind of
event versus another; you can, as I suggested here:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/20...bike-racer.html

....but as I wrote in the follow-up, until you've dropped the extra weight,
it doesn't really matter:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/20...discussion.html
...which I got a lot of flack for, and some emails both nasty and
supportive, the best comment was from Ben Franklin: "Bike racing is not
healthy. But if you want to go fast, here's what to do."

Good luck Ryan!

Mark
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

Paul G.

On May 13, 10:35 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@fridayscomputer.com>
wrote:
>
> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition
> to continuing to ride your bike.

Hmmnnn... move heavy objects... does getting out of my easy chair
count? I guess I could strap my remotes to barbells too...
Fortunately, I live in a cycling paradise, so continuing to ride my
bike is easy enough...
-Paul

Michael Press

In article
<rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote:

> If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> experimenting with The Shit That Will Kill Them.

Losing 25 pounds in the time frame
and with the physical effort you outline
is a huge jolt to the body. You should
find out everything you can about large
weight loss, including how to maintain.
Have you seriously considered a lifelong
commitment to maintaining some particular
weight range? Or are you at risk to blimp
up, dissipating the results of your effort?

A very gradual weight loss program may be in order,
concentrating on portion size. I recommend
the no-guilt diet.

--
Michael Press

Colin Campbell

Paul G. wrote:
> On May 13, 10:35 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@fridayscomputer.com>
> wrote:
>> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition
>> to continuing to ride your bike.
>
> Hmmnnn... move heavy objects... does getting out of my easy chair
> count? I guess I could strap my remotes to barbells too...
> Fortunately, I live in a cycling paradise, so continuing to ride my
> bike is easy enough...
> -Paul

Same paradise as mine, Southern Cal?

Ryan Cousineau

In article <68ub35F2uh4cqU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4829d405$0$2984$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com...
> > Steve Freides wrote:
> >> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in
> >> addition to
> >> continuing to ride your bike.
> >
> > And drink less beer.
>
> Absolutely, especially immediately post-training.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com

For heaven's sake!

Beer is WHY I engage in a sport with high cardio-training requirements.

So I can drink beer!

Dumbassess...

PS: good advice, will consider.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Ryan Cousineau

In article <ysrxfxsmfvlo.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>,
oronkain@ling.helsinki.fi (A R:nen) wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> > with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> > something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> > don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> > CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.
>
> Doesn't sprint training actually help CX? I mean, you do have to get
> back up to speed after each dismount/slow section and each one of
> those accelerations is essentially like a small sprint (though you
> don't want to go all out any further than what you can manage to
> recover from in the time before the next dismount).

Interesting theory, but I suspect not. The ideal in CX is probably
something very close to constant power, and the accelerations after a
well-done remount (at least for me) are not huge: you're supposed to run
fast while off the bike so you don't have to accelerate to get back on.
Wattage probably goes up while running, but in most cases the runs are
brief. Around here, it's not at all unusual to have barrier sections
that last 1-3 seconds, and typically there's one longer run-up, but I
can't think of any that were longer than 15s or so.

My impression of the running sections in CX is that they usually have
more to do with making smooth transitions off and on the bike.

Running? Transitions! Aaah! That's triathlete talk!

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Ryan Cousineau

In article <rubrum-57B8E3.17375113052008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:

> In article
> <rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
> Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> > maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> > in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> > experimenting with The Shit That Will Kill Them.
>
> Losing 25 pounds in the time frame
> and with the physical effort you outline
> is a huge jolt to the body. You should
> find out everything you can about large
> weight loss, including how to maintain.
> Have you seriously considered a lifelong
> commitment to maintaining some particular
> weight range? Or are you at risk to blimp
> up, dissipating the results of your effort?

Let's put it this way:

mid-1996 (living in LA, no exercise, apparently lost weight by osmosis):
156 lbs.
mid-2000 (got married): 190 lbs.
mid-2001 (wife cooks well and healthy): 175 lbs.
2002-2005 progressive reductions in normal mid-summer weight of about 5
lbs. per year, peaking with a record low of 148 lbs. in August 2005,
when I won 5 mid-week crit primes in a row and took some podiums.
2006-2007: the enfattening. Due to personal distractions from the
important work of riding my bike (grand finale was knee problems), I
blimp up to 180 by the start of 2008.

2008: to quote Daniel Coyle, er, Ben Franklin, speaking about Jan
Ullrich, er, Ben Franklin: "fat boy was pissed." Time to stop making the
donuts.

I'm already reasonably happy with my training, in that unlike last year,
I'm consistently getting on my bike and riding.

> A very gradual weight loss program may be in order,
> concentrating on portion size. I recommend
> the no-guilt diet.

I have only two weaknesses that hamstring my diet efforts: portion
control and impulse control. Also, I like beer, wine, and hard liquor.

In 2005, what "worked" for me was essentially eating whatever I wanted
and riding a (for me) ridiculous amount. I was physically unable to
catch up to the calorie debts I was inducing. The system worked!

I don't have a good idea of what to do long-term, most especially for
off-season. The eat-whatever diet probably will be not too bad as long
as I keep riding as much as I am, but it's quite clear I'm just
consuming way too many calories, and my theory is the best way to work
that out is to just really work hard on avoiding the behavior that leads
me to consume certain types of marginal (as in the extra 10%, not as in
doughnuts) calories.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Ryan Cousineau

In article <AWoWj.16702$bX3.4439@newsfe08.phx>,
"Off The Back" <marco_fennelli@yahoo.com> wrote:

[good advice snipped]

> ...but as I wrote in the follow-up, until you've dropped the extra weight,
> it doesn't really matter:
> http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/20...discussion.html
> ...which I got a lot of flack for, and some emails both nasty and
> supportive, the best comment was from Ben Franklin: "Bike racing is not
> healthy. But if you want to go fast, here's what to do."

That post was really useful, right up to the point where you mentioned
chocolate. Now, right after dinner, I don't want to weigh 150 lbs, I
want chocolate! So that part pretty much screwed the rest of the post.

Ahem. However, it seems that you're affirming my other idea, which is
that if the weight drops, the rest is details. The process of weighing
less alone will help everything else, and the best way to weigh less is
to ride often and hard.

> Good luck Ryan!

Thanks. I soon hope to be the fastest Cat 4 on the planet. After that, I
will work on being better at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu than any 7-year-old on
the planet.

> Mark
> http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Paul G.

On May 13, 5:38 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Paul G. wrote:
> > On May 13, 10:35 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@fridayscomputer.com>
> > wrote:
> >> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition
> >> to continuing to ride your bike.
>
> > Hmmnnn... move heavy objects... does getting out of my easy chair
> > count? I guess I could strap my remotes to barbells too...
> > Fortunately, I live in a cycling paradise, so continuing to ride my
> > bike is easy enough...
> > -Paul
>
> Same paradise as mine, Southern Cal?

Hmmnnnn. Isn't SoCal more of a surfer's paradise? I only go there
when I have to, like for funerals. I'm in Sonoma County. We have a
lot of scenic backroads, vineyards, redwoods, some good climbs,
creeks, lakes and the coast. The first two stages of the Tour of
California pass thru here.
-Paul