recommend a pedal for a clipless noob

Nate Nagel

dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
> On May 11, 2:18 pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Just got back from trying them out - I can already feel that I'm going
>>to be faster and more efficient, but either I think my legs are set in
>>their old ways; I spent about 15 minutes on the porch practicing
>>clipping in and out while balancing against a picnic table, then just
>>started riding back and forth through the neighborhood, stopping and
>>unclipping every couple houses. Man I must have been a sight!
>
>
> I can do a lot better than that-- I got some dirt, apparently, into my
> SPD-SL cleat, the right one that I do my in/out and standing with. Got
> careless with planning a landing, and dumped it at a busy intersection
> when my foot didn't pop out as expected.
>
> Ha ha, I do that once or twice a year, where I'm a little too sure of
> myself and don't get the foot unclipped before my "progress to
> landing" takes me past the point of no return, where it's too late to
> get the foot out and I have to prepare to ditch, gear up <g>. I've had
> enough practice at this so I can land pretty softly and kinda roll on
> knee and hip with little-no body or bike damage. I've also learned
> *not* to make eye contact with observers (and there are always
> observers!), much less embarrassment that way!

If it makes you feel any better, here's the incident that prompted this
foray into SPD-land... I was riding down the W&OD trail, came to an
intersection with a road. I stopped and dismounted as cars were coming
both ways. Well the traffic decided to be nice and stop to let me
cross, so I put my right foot on, pushed off hard, planted my left foot
(while still out of the saddle,) put all my weight on it to get moving
fast, and apparently I didn't do it quite right, my foot slipped off the
pedal and somehow I managed to hit something solid with the arch of my
foot (nice purple mark there) dragged the pedal up my calf (couple
stripes there) and bounced my harbles off the top tube (oh, the joys of
a high bottom bracket. I think that day I hadn't planned on a "serious"
ride so I was actually wearing plain old boxer shorts, so that didn't
help any.) Managed to recover without dumping it and accelerated
through the intersection while literally seeing stars. That's good stuff.

There, feel better?

The other issue was I was just using some old soccer shoes and after
about 10 miles or so I was starting to feel what I guess is known as
"hot foot" so I figured if I was going to keep doing this I'd better get
some proper biking shoes anyway so I didn't wreck my feet. Which is odd
because I used to ride all over the place in HS and never noticed any
issues, I guess I must have been more indestructable back then (or maybe
old running shoes, which is probably what I wore most of the time back
then, were more suitable?)

>
> Actually, I look at it like this: you're a grown-up, out there in
> public riding a bicycle and enjoying it. I mean, to a lot of "the
> neighbors", you're obviously beyond help in the first place, right?

Actually, I really like my neighborhood - it's a good cross section of
granola munching hippies with a smattering of guys with ancient sports
cars in their driveways, and also a couple of immigrants thrown in to
round out the mix. In other words, people I can identify with. It's a
Good Thing. It also means that nobody bitches about my "low
maintenance" yard, which is nice. (no grass, just trees and stuff like
may apples, ferns, blue bells, a handful of hostas and trillum etc. etc.
etc.)

> ================
> Yup, you have to "pattern" your response so it's automatic, just as
> you're doing. Just a little training, your survival instinct will
> operate automatically afterwards.

Yeah, I think I might have tried to do two things at once though - get
used to the SPDs and also condition myself to dismount to the right, not
realizing that I've apparently been dismounting to the left my entire
riding life without realizing that it made any difference. Maybe I'll
defer the second until I'm more comfortable with the first. I also
loosened up the tension on the clips after I got back, which I probably
should have done first, but I was feeling cocky.

>
> Excuse me as I remind you to keep the cleat screws tight, something
> else that gets away from us experts every once in a while.

Good tip, I'll take any, no matter how basic they may seem.

> Got them, like them? Shoes fit/are comfy? Good deal! --D-y

Actually, I'm quite surprised, like I said they were $60 (on sale) and
actually fit me better than most of the shoes in my closet. I've got
very odd shaped feet - narrow, dainty heels but wide, ducklike toes.
Great if you're a competitive swimmer (as I was, at least in HS) but not
so good if you're trying to find any kind of athletic-esque footwear
that fits properly. Two thumbs up. Here they are, if anyone else has
similar feet:

http://www.pearlizumi.com/product.p...duct_id=1239766

Incidentally, I positioned the cleats in what I ASSume is the "default"
position - under the balls of my feet, and about centered laterally.
Are there any guidelines to fine tuning them once I get used to them, or
is it more a "just try a couple different positions and find what works"
kind of process?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>
>>>>Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth
>>>>rubber soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work
>>>>for many years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on
>>>>hotel/motel floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am
>>>>glad that my cleats give no float with them, being neither
>>>>pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.
>
>
>>>The Shimano SH-51 "single release" SPD cleat has a specified 4° of
>>>float, which is of course much less than say a Speedplay Frog®. As
>>>for being pigeon-toed or duck-footed, most shoes allow for
>>>considerable variation in the direction the SPD cleat is mounted,
>>>and some trial and error may be required in getting this right with
>>>new shoes (when replacing worn cleats, the indentation left by the
>>>serrations on the top of the cleat makes alignment of the new cleat
>>>easy).
>
>
>>F/U: based on the comments in this thread and the facts that REI had
>>a sale on through today and Dubya apparently got around to sending
>>me my "stimulus" money yesterday, I went down there and bought
>>myself a set of the second cheapest SPD pedals (the cheapest ones
>>that have replaceable bearings.) After looking at Shimano's web
>>site and examples of the various pedals in the store, it doesn't
>>look like there's a whole lot of difference between the M540s (the
>>ones I bought) and the more expensive ones other than a very slight
>>weight difference and a big increase in price - am I about right
>>here? I tried on some shoes and immediately nixed the idea of using
>>the Shimano "touring" shoes because I found that the two Shimano
>>shoes that I did try on were both too narrow for my duck-like toes
>>and had heel cups that were too big. I did get some cheap Pearl
>>Izumi MTB shoes that fit me perfectly, they were on sale for $60 so
>>I figured WTF.
>
>
> When you say MTB shoes, I visualize shoes with knobby tires that track
> dirt into any place you walk after crossing a wet surface, especially
> a soft one. They aren't called waffle-stompers for nothing. That's
> why I suggested the Shimano smooth rubber soled shoes.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yxfwd3

Believe me, I was listening to you and was sold on the concept - my
original plan was to trial fit some Shimano shoes to find what size I
should get, and then order a pair of either the RT-51s or the RT-80s
(the RT-50 in your link appears to be discontinued, at least here in the
US, and Nashbar is already out of my size) you suggested. However,
based on the three different pairs of Shimano shoes that I tried on at
REI, they just wouldn't have fit me. Too narrow in the front, and there
was something hard in there that was cramping my pinkie toe, while my
heel was slopping all around in the back. I figured that having to be
careful about knocking the mud out was better than fighting with shoes
that just don't fit my odd-shaped feet.

<snip>

> Don't worry about appearances. People who laugh at you aren't worth
> knowing anyway.

Well, I laugh at people all the time and... well... I guess I am a bit
of a jerk

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

landotter

On May 11, 2:18 pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> Well based on some comments here and on bikeforums regarding crashes in
> traffic I figured it would be a good idea to start practicing it the
> other way as well, boy what a CF.

Stop figgurin. Stay consistent. I find that keepin' your "butter" foot
clipped in at stops at around 2 o clock and using your non-primary
foot as the stand consistently is the way to go. No getting fancy, and
having to think, especially for those of us that ride spuds and fixed
gear in traffic.

As far as cleat position goes, ball of foot is fine. How do your feet
normally want to point on the pedals? Point the cleats lightly in that
direction as needed. There's float, so if you're a little sloppy, you
won't suffer too much. Grease or loctite the cleat screws. Get them
tight, or they *will* loosen and fall out when you're in Bumfuque.

Tom Sherman

"landotter" wrote:
> On May 11, 2:18 pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>> Well based on some comments here and on bikeforums regarding crashes in
>> traffic I figured it would be a good idea to start practicing it the
>> other way as well, boy what a CF.
>
> Stop figgurin. Stay consistent. I find that keepin' your "butter" foot
> clipped in at stops at around 2 o clock and using your non-primary
> foot as the stand consistently is the way to go. No getting fancy, and
> having to think, especially for those of us that ride spuds and fixed
> gear in traffic.
>
Just watch out for the greasy area between the normal automotive wheel
tracks when you plant your "stand" foot when riding in urban areas in
the rain.

> As far as cleat position goes, ball of foot is fine. How do your feet
> normally want to point on the pedals? Point the cleats lightly in that
> direction as needed. There's float, so if you're a little sloppy, you
> won't suffer too much. Grease or loctite the cleat screws. Get them
> tight, or they *will* loosen and fall out when you're in Bumfuque.

I thought it was spelled "Bumphuque".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

dustoyevsky@mac.com

On May 11, 5:05*pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:

> If it makes you feel any better, here's the incident that prompted this
> foray into SPD-land...

(snipped gory details)

> There, feel better?

I've felt your pain, if not in exact detail. What can I say, we've all
done our best, at least once, you know?

However: This is not a contest, thankyouverymuch <g>. IOW, let's not
get a World's Most Painful Videos thing going on here...

> The other issue was I was just using some old soccer shoes and after
> about 10 miles or so I was starting to feel what I guess is known as
> "hot foot" (snip)

Clipless saves a lot of wear and tear on your feet, compared to clips
and straps. Important esp. as the personal year count progresses.
And clipless obviates getting the running shoe stuck in a clip/strap
pedal, of course. Good deal, there.

> Actually, I really like my neighborhood -

I was only speaking in broad generalities.

>*I also
> loosened up the tension on the clips after I got back, which I probably
> should have done first, but I was feeling cocky.

Well, what Jobst said about "automatic" I found to be true in one "how
did I do that?" save-- managed to stick a wheel in a curving expansion
gap on a concrete slab road (just a plastic "cap" there, not the
filled-in gap I expected), with my body suddenly going one way and the
bike being forced another. New cleats/pedals I'd been fussing with,
both getting in and out, were no impediment to immediate, unthinking
de-clip and a damage-preventing bit of pavement waterskiing. But, for
traffic (stopping at intersections) situations, I'd rather practice a
little just to be sure. Not that I've achieved perfection of course
(as noted).

> http://www.pearlizumi.com/product.p...43&product_id=1...

Good reference, thanks.

> Incidentally, I positioned the cleats in what I ASSume is the "default"
> position - under the balls of my feet, and about centered laterally.
> Are there any guidelines to fine tuning them once I get used to them, or
> is it more a "just try a couple different positions and find what works"
> kind of process?

Um... they don't have to match perfectly, side to side <g>, and it
comes down to what works for you. It's a can of worms, potentially--
I've seen people, esp. back in the old days of clips and straps,
change cleat positions often due to discomfort (sore knees), searching
for a setup that worked, and observed that maybe it was the constant
change that was the problem for these roadies who were riding a
(relative) large number of miles, relatively fast...

Yeah, since they working OK, keep them on there as they are and see
how it goes; you might leave them there forever or find you'd like
more "foot forward" or back, or maybe one foot likes to be pointed
with toes in or out a little compared to the other.

There have been discussions here, of course, which are google-able.
One such suggested "feet forward" as a help for sore knees; I tried
that and it seemed to work out-- not that my knees were bad at the
time, but more as a preventative against an old problem repeating.
--D-y

Bob

>
> This is almost a helmet troll. I have always been a Look guy but if I had
> it to do over again I'd have gone Speedplay.
>

I loved the speedplays but the cleats will distort if you walk on them
(without the "coffee shop cap covers" you can buy separately). I had
the caps but kept losing them in dirt or mud which just is inevitable
over time. The cleats will have clip in/out problems if they distort,
which can be dangerous..
I switched to the Crank Bros. cleats after having just such problems
with the speedplays. The Crank Brothers cleats are much more durable
for being walked on. I actually liked the speedplays more but would
rather not worry about the cleat system.

Andrew Price

On Sun, 11 May 2008 15:32:54 -0700 (PDT), landotter
<landotter@gmail.com> wrote:

[---]

>As far as cleat position goes, ball of foot is fine.

Yes.

>How do your feet
>normally want to point on the pedals? Point the cleats lightly in that
>direction as needed.

Didn't you mean the *opposite* direction? For example, if a rider has
naturally outward turning feet, they will be in their "neutral"
position when they are to the left and right of the fore-and-aft axis
of the bike pedals, rather than being aligned with it. The cleats, on
the other hand, will be "neutral" in float terms, when they are
aligned with that axis.

To compensate for that discrepancy and to allow equal amounts of float
left and right, the cleats should point forward when the rider's feet
are in their "neutral" position. This would imply cleats turning
inwards on shoes for a rider with outward turning feet.

Art Harris

Michael Press wrote:
> I am shopping around for some RT-51's,
> because I have waffle stompers
> and want to go with the smooth soles.
>

These guys seem to have them in most szes:

http://penncycle.com/itemdetails.cf...gId=39&id=15762

http://penncycle.com/itemdetails.cf...gId=39&id=15633

From my experience with the similar Shimano T092 shoes, they tend to
run a size small. I had to exchange a size 47 for 48.

Art Harris

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

Art Harris <n2ah@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> I am shopping around for some RT-51's, because I have waffle
>> stompers and want to go with the smooth soles.

> These guys seem to have them in most szes:

http://penncycle.com/itemdetails.cf...gId=39&id=15762

http://penncycle.com/itemdetails.cf...gId=39&id=15633

> From my experience with the similar Shimano T092 shoes, they tend to
> run a size small. I had to exchange a size 47 for 48.

I'm not sure hw shoe widths vary with size, but with SPD pedals,
riding a larger shoe with a bit of extra toe clearance doesn't bother
the pedal fit and can acommodate a wider foot. I find being able to
walk in doors without leaving waffle stomper debris or scrtching
hardwood floors is worth using smooth soled shoes. I'v been doing
that for a lot of years with success.

http://tinyurl.com/yxfwd3

Jobst Brandt

Alan Hoyle

On Sat, 10 May 2008 13:31:31, joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:

> For a shoe to be walkable, it needs a recessed cleat. SPD are the only
> type that can be in a recess in the shoe. However they do not need to
> be in a recess to work. Only to walk.

Just to be clear: I think Joseph means the SPD Bolt-pattern. There are
several types of incompatible cleat/pedals that use the two-bolt SPD
bolt connection and can be used with walkable MTB shoes:

Among those include Shimano SPD (and several compatible brands), Time
ATAC, SpeedPlay Frogs, Crank Bros Eggbeaters, and several others.

I'd suggest to the Original Poster that he just buy cheap Shimano SPD
pedals or some off-brand, but cleat-compatible ones. Some of the
cheapest off-brands look very similar to SPD, but don't have cleats
that work with SPD pedals.

I personally use Time ATAC's on all my bikes (road, MTB, touring).
ATACs and Eggbeaters have an advantage over SPD in that they are
better at dealing with mud, but there is a distinct disadvantage to
going with pedals that have non-SPD cleats. If you ever take a
spinning class, most places have pedals that can accept SPD cleats.
Also, if you are test riding bikes, virtually any store can install a
pair of SPD-compatible pedals for you.

I get around these issues by putting SPD cleats on a pair of "retired"
shoes, but am inconvenienced if I forget to bring them along.

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - alanh@unc.edu - http://www.alanhoyle.com/

Sandy

Dans le message de news:4828b3ab$0$34498$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> a
réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> Art Harris <n2ah@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I am shopping around for some RT-51's, because I have waffle
>>> stompers and want to go with the smooth soles.
>
>> These guys seem to have them in most szes:
>
> http://penncycle.com/itemdetails.cf...gId=39&id=15762
>
> http://penncycle.com/itemdetails.cf...gId=39&id=15633
>
>> From my experience with the similar Shimano T092 shoes, they tend to
>> run a size small. I had to exchange a size 47 for 48.
>
> I'm not sure hw shoe widths vary with size, but with SPD pedals,
> riding a larger shoe with a bit of extra toe clearance doesn't bother
> the pedal fit and can acommodate a wider foot. I find being able to
> walk in doors without leaving waffle stomper debris or scrtching
> hardwood floors is worth using smooth soled shoes. I'v been doing
> that for a lot of years with success.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yxfwd3
>
> Jobst Brandt

The OP stated that his heel is narrow, and as that is paramount in fitting
cycling shoes, the issue of width across the front is irrelevant to his
concern.
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Ryan Cousineau

In article <68rru5F2v0r29U1@mid.individual.net>,
Alan Hoyle <alanh@unc.edu> wrote:

> On Sat, 10 May 2008 13:31:31, joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'd suggest to the Original Poster that he just buy cheap Shimano SPD
> pedals or some off-brand, but cleat-compatible ones. Some of the
> cheapest off-brands look very similar to SPD, but don't have cleats
> that work with SPD pedals.

This is excellent advice. I suspect that the stiffest MTB shoes are
stiff enough for some pretty competent road racing (they're stiff enough
for MTB and CXers; if there really was a performance disadvantage, I
think you'd see a few XC racers experimenting with Look pedals; Tinker
Juarez used to do that, but he now rides Crank Brothers (albeit
Quattros).

> I personally use Time ATAC's on all my bikes (road, MTB, touring).
> ATACs and Eggbeaters have an advantage over SPD in that they are
> better at dealing with mud, but there is a distinct disadvantage to
> going with pedals that have non-SPD cleats. If you ever take a
> spinning class, most places have pedals that can accept SPD cleats.
> Also, if you are test riding bikes, virtually any store can install a
> pair of SPD-compatible pedals for you.
>
> I get around these issues by putting SPD cleats on a pair of "retired"
> shoes, but am inconvenienced if I forget to bring them along.

The traditional response is to bring a set of pedals and a pedal wrench.

Similar to your approach, I use Egg Beaters on all my bikes. The only
reason for that was because I really like cyclocross; otherwise I would
have standardized on SPDs.

As it is, I hear some of the top-end SPDs are pretty good at mud
clearance these days.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Alan Hoyle

On Mon, 12 May 2008 22:42:54, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article <68rru5F2v0r29U1@mid.individual.net>,
> Alan Hoyle <alanh@unc.edu> wrote:

>> I get around these issues by putting SPD cleats on a pair of "retired"
>> shoes, but am inconvenienced if I forget to bring them along.

> The traditional response is to bring a set of pedals and a pedal wrench.

That's what I've done for impromptu test rides bike store (not that
I'm in the market for more bikes these days). Spinning classes are
another story. I don't think most gyms would look too kindly on
people disassembling their equipment.

> Similar to your approach, I use Egg Beaters on all my bikes. The only
> reason for that was because I really like cyclocross; otherwise I would
> have standardized on SPDs.

> As it is, I hear some of the top-end SPDs are pretty good at mud
> clearance these days.

The only reason I'm using ATACs is that I got a good deal on my first
pair. My first clipless pedals were the SPD-compatible WTB Stealth,
and those ended up being unreliable. They were great at first and I
liked being able to adjust things for a new-to-clipless rider. After
a few months of use the adjustments wouldn't stay set, the plastic
cracked on one pedal, and it became difficult to unclip at times. I
replaced them at least once, and the second pair started exhibiting
the same problems.

I suspect if I'd seen a pair of Shimano-brand SPD pedals on that same
clearance table, I would be riding those instead. Or EggBeaters if
they were there.

Eggbeaters are nice in that they also have a "road pedal" in the
Quattro, which is compatible with regular Eggbeater cleats, but more
importantly, they have a road-shoe compatible "pontoon" cleat that
makes them slightly more walkable.

I have a pair of Sidi road shoes, and they're nigh unusable with the
ATACs. It is hard to line up the cleats with the springs, as the
hard, smooth outsole means if you miss, your foot just slides off the
pedal. I only tried this on one or two rides before I gave up on the
non-walkable shoes.

-alan

--
Alan Hoyle - alanh@unc.edu - http://www.alanhoyle.com/

dustoyevsky@mac.com

On May 13, 9:27*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> The traditional response is to not do spin classes.

Like everything else, the experience varies widely. Having an
instructor who is not "an idiot" (screaming though a loud microphone
when she already has Ethel Merman vocal chops, for instance, and over
blasting craprock music to boot) really helps, IME.

Some really cute girls go to Spin. Sometimes they need help with their
bike adjustments and stuff, too.

Buy a pair of Spin shoes with SPD capability. Could be the sandals,
whatever. I just found a pair of "new" (five rides according to the
former owner, must have been short rides, too) Dominators
(Dominatrixes?) on local Craigslist for my other half. $40 was asking
price. They're red, so they don't get mixed up with the SPD-SL shoes
on the way to the gym... --D-y