Charges rec'd in death of 2 NorCal cyclists

Bill Sornson

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> You don't have to pass the AP english comprehension exam to recognize
> that Jobst was pointing out that blame might lie in multiple places,
> not just with the police officer who ran the cyclists down.

Speaking of English comprehension, Jobst should get a year just for this:
"Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and police in
which we hope to ride."

Bill "say wha?!?" S.

RS

Law enforcement is so good at closing its ranks in incidents like this. That
Deputy Cousins is getting charge at all is amazing, though "just" two
misdemeanors and not felonies such as vehicular manslaughter. Any charges
being filed tells us most likely what actually occurred is far worse then what the
two low-grade charges indicate. There is also quite a bit in the news, if to be
believed, that the Sheriff's department did not follow proper procedure at the
scene of the crash, losing valuable evidence. This is not uncommon also.

Jay Beattie

On May 10, 7:25*pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On May 10, 9:04 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >> Andre Jute wrote:
>
> >> *http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...may08/may10news
>
> >>>>> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> >>>>> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> >>>>> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
> >>>> That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
> >>>> premeditated type candidate.
> >>> The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
> >>> seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
> >>> behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
> >>> sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?
> >>> And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
> >>> sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
> >>> any time...
> >>> Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.
> >> Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and
> >> police in which we hope to ride. *The reason a harsh sentence may not
> >> be given the driver is that major fault lies with supervisors and
> >> policy they enforce. *Documented and reviewed is that these officers
> >> serve consecutive 12-hour shifts. *If this were Abu Ghraib or
> >> Guantanamo, supervisory culpability would not be considered, but we
> >> are a bit more civilized in Santa Clara County than that.
>
> >> Jobst Brandt
>
> > I wasn't aware that the RBT charter limits comments to those "helpful"
> > in Santa Clara County politics.
>
> > I certaintly hope no one in the families and other loved ones of the
> > dead and injured cyclists families reads your cynical attitude to
> > their loss.
>
> > Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> > year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> > suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.
>
> > Nor am I impressed with your attempt to blame the supervisors. The
> > policeman who killed those drivers should take responsibility for his
> > actions; he could have slept in the stationhouse until he was fit to
> > drive.[...]
>
> Sleeping on the job is grounds for both immediate termination and denial
> of unemployment benefits in the US. The deputy may well have been faced
> with the choice of working overtired or losing his livelihood.

There is no general law in the United States prohibiting sleeping on
the job -- and the sheriffs collective bargaining agreement may
specifically define good cause for firing as not including falling
asleep on the job. Who knows? I know that falling asleep is not
sufficient to deny unemployment benefits in Oregon -- which requires
insubordination, among other things. Falling asleep behind the wheel,
however, is negligence, and the sheriff is subject to prosecution
under the California negligent/vehicular homicide law --
unfortunately. I always think negligently caused injuries should be
addressed by the civil law and not the criminal law.
>
> Note that in US hospital, it is routine to make medical interns work 24
> to 36 hour shifts, yet management is never held criminally liable when
> mistakes are made due to fatigue. (Of course, the US medical system is
> rotten at the core, but that is another subject.)
>

I am not impressed by the fact that the sheriff had to work two twelve
hour shifts. He had ten to eleven hours off between shifts, and he
was young -- 27. I worked ambulance in almost the same area (San
Jose) and worked 12, 14, 24, 36 and 48 hour shifts. I slept when I
could, and I never fell asleep behind the wheel. My circumstance were
different, though, because I always had a partner. Things might have
been different had I been alone. -- Jay Beattie.

still just me

On Sun, 11 May 2008 11:31:39 -0700, RS <r_schiller@comcast.net> wrote:

>Law enforcement is so good at closing its ranks in incidents like this. That
>Deputy Cousins is getting charge at all is amazing, though "just" two
>misdemeanors and not felonies such as vehicular manslaughter. Any charges
>being filed tells us most likely what actually occurred is far worse then what the
>two low-grade charges indicate.

Yes, too typical. They protect their own unless the crimes are so
serious as to be undeniable. Bringing misdemeanor charges that will
result in a slap on the wrist allows them to avoid bringing more
serious charges while still giving the appearance of an unbiased
investigation.

> There is also quite a bit in the news, if to be
>believed, that the Sheriff's department did not follow proper procedure at the
>scene of the crash, losing valuable evidence. This is not uncommon also.

I use to be very good friends with a Forensic investigator. He is a
very unbiased scientist. The stories he tells of complete incompetence
on the part of the police are frightening... and the stories of
outright manipulation of evidence and failure to tell the complete
truth on the stand by other were incredible.

Andre Jute

On May 11, 1:29*am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <c0eb793e-c853-45b9-acc1-e9828762c...@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> *Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> > year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> > suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.
>
> It would if you had to serve it. Do you know how many rights
> you have to sign away when you serve a supervised probation?
> For instance, police may enter your residence without a warrant.
>
> --
> Michael Press

Hasn't it penetrated your thick skull that by neligently running over
these two cyclists who did him no harm and killing them, this sleeping
policeman took away all their rights, forever?

Andre Jute
Cyclist

Andre Jute

On May 11, 3:25*am, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On May 10, 9:04 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >> Andre Jute wrote:
>
> >> *http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...may08/may10news
>
> >>>>> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> >>>>> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> >>>>> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
> >>>> That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
> >>>> premeditated type candidate.
> >>> The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
> >>> seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
> >>> behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
> >>> sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?
> >>> And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
> >>> sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
> >>> any time...
> >>> Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.
> >> Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and
> >> police in which we hope to ride. *The reason a harsh sentence may not
> >> be given the driver is that major fault lies with supervisors and
> >> policy they enforce. *Documented and reviewed is that these officers
> >> serve consecutive 12-hour shifts. *If this were Abu Ghraib or
> >> Guantanamo, supervisory culpability would not be considered, but we
> >> are a bit more civilized in Santa Clara County than that.
>
> >> Jobst Brandt
>
> > I wasn't aware that the RBT charter limits comments to those "helpful"
> > in Santa Clara County politics.
>
> > I certaintly hope no one in the families and other loved ones of the
> > dead and injured cyclists families reads your cynical attitude to
> > their loss.
>
> > Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> > year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> > suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.
>
> > Nor am I impressed with your attempt to blame the supervisors. The
> > policeman who killed those drivers should take responsibility for his
> > actions; he could have slept in the stationhouse until he was fit to
> > drive.[...]
>
> Sleeping on the job is grounds for both immediate termination and denial
> of unemployment benefits in the US. The deputy may well have been faced
> with the choice of working overtired or losing his livelihood.
>
> Note that in US hospital, it is routine to make medical interns work 24
> to 36 hour shifts, yet management is never held criminally liable when
> mistakes are made due to fatigue. (Of course, the US medical system is
> rotten at the core, but that is another subject.)
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Lots of beds in hospitals for interns to catch a nap. -- AJ

Andre Jute

On May 11, 6:30*am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> *>Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and
>
> > police in which we hope to ride. The reason a harsh sentence may not
> > be given the driver is that major fault lies with supervisors and
> > policy they enforce. Documented and reviewed is that these officers
> > serve consecutive 12-hour shifts. If this were Abu Ghraib or
> > Guantanamo, supervisory culpability would not be considered, but we
> > are a bit more civilized in Santa Clara County than that.
>
> > Jobst Brandt
> >>I wasn't aware that the RBT charter limits comments to those "helpful"
> >>in Santa Clara County politics.
> >>I certaintly hope no one in the families and other loved ones of the
> >>dead and injured cyclists families reads your cynical attitude to
> >>their loss.
>
> Please identify the "cynical attitude" where Jobst showed disrespect to the
> families of those involved in this tragedy.
>
> You don't have to pass the AP english comprehension exam to recognize that
> Jobst was pointing out that blame might lie in multiple places, not just
> with the police officer who ran the cyclists down.
>
> --Mike-- * * Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com

If this is a sample of your comprehension, Mike, you'd do well to
stick to selling bike components and leave the English comprehension
to me. Jobst's entire letter to me was an exercise in appeasement and
collaborationism. The police are our servants, not a force to be
appeased and permitted special dispensations to break the law and
murder citizens either deliberately or negligently.

Andre Jute
No Vichy water here, thank you

> "Andre Jute" <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c0eb793e-c853-45b9-acc1-e9828762cebd@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> On May 10, 9:04 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>
>
> > Andre Jute wrote:
>
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...may08/may10news
>
> > >>> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> > >>> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road.
> > >>> Likely
> > >>> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
> > >> That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
> > >> premeditated type candidate.
> > > The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
> > > seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
> > > behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
> > > sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?
> > > And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
> > > sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
> > > any time...
> > > Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.
>
> > Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and
> > police in which we hope to ride. The reason a harsh sentence may not
> > be given the driver is that major fault lies with supervisors and
> > policy they enforce. Documented and reviewed is that these officers
> > serve consecutive 12-hour shifts. If this were Abu Ghraib or
> > Guantanamo, supervisory culpability would not be considered, but we
> > are a bit more civilized in Santa Clara County than that.
>
> > Jobst Brandt
>
> I wasn't aware that the RBT charter limits comments to those "helpful"
> in Santa Clara County politics.
>
> I certaintly hope no one in the families and other loved ones of the
> dead and injured cyclists families reads your cynical attitude to
> their loss.
>
> Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.
>
> Nor am I impressed with your attempt to blame the supervisors. The
> policeman who killed those drivers should take responsibility for his
> actions; he could have slept in the stationhouse until he was fit to
> drive.
>
> If this policeman's superiors are culpable, they should be in the dock
> with him under criminal charges. And we would like to hear from the
> politicians, apparently your pals, that disciplinary action is taken
> against them for their poor judgement.
>
> There was a time when a policeman was held to a higher standard than
> the other criminals on American streets.
>
> Two innocent men are dead, and you, Jobst Brandt, want to play
> politics. That's contemptible.
>
> What's more, if cyclists trade away the lives of two of their own for
> no greater gain than the vague wishful nothingness of "the
> relationship between bicyclists and police in which we hope to ride",
> you will be seen as weak and powerless and treated with the contempt
> you deserve. You don't earn respect by snivelling and selling out.
>
> Andre Jute
> Disappointed

Andre Jute

On May 11, 8:35 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > You don't have to pass the AP english comprehension exam to recognize
> > that Jobst was pointing out that blame might lie in multiple places,
> > not just with the police officer who ran the cyclists down.
>
> Speaking of English comprehension, Jobst should get a year just for this:
> "Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and police in
> which we hope to ride."

From Germany out came the Syntax of Jobst to the Police to relate.
It's perfectly good English, hardly even awkward if one remembers that
English is a Teutonic language...

Andre Jute
Cyclist

Michael Press

In article
<5c720f4f-d6c8-4413-9a08-89534d6fde34@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
Andre Jute <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On May 11, 1:29*am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <c0eb793e-c853-45b9-acc1-e9828762c...@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> > *Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> > > year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> > > suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.
> >
> > It would if you had to serve it. Do you know how many rights
> > you have to sign away when you serve a supervised probation?
> > For instance, police may enter your residence without a warrant.
>
> Hasn't it penetrated your thick skull that by neligently running over
> these two cyclists who did him no harm and killing them, this sleeping
> policeman took away all their rights, forever?

You change the subject. I address your assessment of
the relative severity of supervised probation.

--
Michael Press

Andre Jute

On May 13, 12:55*am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <5c720f4f-d6c8-4413-9a08-89534d6fd...@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
> *Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 11, 1:29*am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <c0eb793e-c853-45b9-acc1-e9828762c...@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> > > *Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> > > > year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> > > > suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.
>
> > > It would if you had to serve it. Do you know how many rights
> > > you have to sign away when you serve a supervised probation?
> > > For instance, police may enter your residence without a warrant.
>
> > Hasn't it penetrated your thick skull that by neligently running over
> > these two cyclists who did him no harm and killing them, this sleeping
> > policeman took away all their rights, forever?
>
> You change the subject. I address your assessment of
> the relative severity of supervised probation.
>
> --
> Michael Press

I never know if you are a malicious troll or merely terrifying stupid,
Michael. Today you appear to be only a debating trade merchant, a
kindergarten polemicist begging to be congratulated on his cleverness
in retreating to the narrowest literality used as a diversion. It's
not clever when you're appearing before an intelligent audience. When
you grow up you will discover that what matters is not the cleverness
of your points but their substance.

You're the one who introduced supervised probation. I am speaking
about a specific case with a specific culprit and specific victims,
and expressing outrage at a suggestion that in this specific case
there will not be a custodial sentence, and at the appeasers of the
police "force" finding reasons to justify what is clearly an
injustice. Whatever is in the place of a jail sentence will not be
enough, despite your disingenuous apologia.

I repeat, the sleeping policemen negligently took away all the rights
of the two cyclists he killed, forever. He should be held responsible,
and not sent away with a slap on the wrist because the local cycle-
pols contemptibly consider that justice "doesn't help the relationship
between bicyclists and police in which we hope to ride".

You may have the last word; your limp apologia won't persuade me of
anything and I've made my point already.

Andre Jute
Disgusted

Michael Press

In article
<7b2b8142-d70e-40c2-8dec-d943b2bffe65@j33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
Andre Jute <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On May 13, 12:55*am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <5c720f4f-d6c8-4413-9a08-89534d6fd...@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
> > *Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On May 11, 1:29*am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <c0eb793e-c853-45b9-acc1-e9828762c...@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > *Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> > > > > year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> > > > > suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.
> >
> > > > It would if you had to serve it. Do you know how many rights
> > > > you have to sign away when you serve a supervised probation?
> > > > For instance, police may enter your residence without a warrant.
> >
> > > Hasn't it penetrated your thick skull that by neligently running over
> > > these two cyclists who did him no harm and killing them, this sleeping
> > > policeman took away all their rights, forever?
> >
> > You change the subject. I address your assessment of
> > the relative severity of supervised probation.
>
> I never know if you are a malicious troll or merely terrifying stupid,
> Michael. Today you appear to be only a debating trade merchant, a
> kindergarten polemicist begging to be congratulated on his cleverness
> in retreating to the narrowest literality used as a diversion. It's
> not clever when you're appearing before an intelligent audience. When
> you grow up you will discover that what matters is not the cleverness
> of your points but their substance.
>
> You're the one who introduced supervised probation.

No, you introduced supervised probation,
calling it "a slap on the wrist."

--
Michael Press

Robert Chung

On May 9, 5:41*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...may08/may10news
>
> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.

Charges filed today:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...1CBFJ.DTL&tsp=1

Ryan Cousineau

In article
<55fde9f7-ac11-4b7f-9fd4-ec54c9a7d843@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
Robert Chung <rechung@gmail.com> wrote:

> On May 9, 5:41*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...may08/may10news
> >
> > You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> > policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> > charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
>
> Charges filed today:
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...L11CBFJ.DTL&tsp
=1

"Misdemeanor manslaughter"?

I'm still a bit torn by the nature of this whole case. But I am now
newly introduced to the idea that you can kill two people through a
criminally negligent act, but it's not a big crime.

I know, I know, misdemeanor versus felony in the US is mostly a
distinction in the jail sentence length, and I don't think it was ever
likely they were going to throw this guy in jail for more than a year,
but even reasonable incongruities often pique my fancy.

And of course, the victims, regardless of subsequent outcomes, remain
dead.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Qui si parla Campagnolo

On Jun 20, 1:51*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <55fde9f7-ac11-4b7f-9fd4-ec54c9a7d...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
> *Robert Chung <rech...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 9, 5:41*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...may08/may10news
>
> > > You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> > > policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> > > charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
>
> > Charges filed today:
> >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...06/19/BAIL11CBF....
>
> =1
>
> "Misdemeanor manslaughter"?
>
> I'm still a bit torn by the nature of this whole case. But I am now
> newly introduced to the idea that you can kill two people through a
> criminally negligent act, but it's not a big crime.
>
> I know, I know, misdemeanor versus felony in the US is mostly a
> distinction in the jail sentence length, and I don't think it was ever
> likely they were going to throw this guy in jail for more than a year,
> but even reasonable incongruities often pique my fancy.
>
> And of course, the victims, regardless of subsequent outcomes, remain
> dead.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@gmail.comhttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
> "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

We had a teen here that fell asleep and killed a cyclist and he
received essentially no punishment at all. A fine, some probation. He
whined and cried about how sorry he was but.....proper punishment is
for punishing and to try to prevent some other stupid kid from doing
stupid things that result in an innocent getting hurt of killed. His
peers see this as an 'oh well, I'll get a good lawyer, no biggie'.