Lacing suggestions

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

Hi All,

I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.

First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
and weaknesses.

The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
(until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.

My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
very aero, and heavy.

I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.

So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
V's.

But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Joseph

almost_fast@yahoo.com

On May 8, 12:36*pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
> be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.
>
> First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
> and weaknesses.
>
> The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
> back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
> (until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
> brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.
>
> My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
> Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
> very aero, and heavy.
>
> I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
> 28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
> which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
> probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
> disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
> flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
> these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.
>
> So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
> available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
> than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
> I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
> V's.
>
> But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
> laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
> On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
> there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
> on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.
>
> Joseph

Friend of mine built radial with Dura-Ace hubs and broke the flange -
one on the front hub then one on the rear. I recommend crossed spokes.

Colin Campbell

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
> be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.
>
> First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
> and weaknesses.
>
> The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
> back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
> (until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
> brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.
>
> My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
> Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
> very aero, and heavy.
>
> I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
> 28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
> which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
> probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
> disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
> flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
> these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.
>
> So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
> available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
> than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
> I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
> V's.
>
> But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
> laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
> On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
> there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
> on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.
>
> Joseph

Joseph,
Be sure you weigh the wheels you have, including the "every day" wheels.

I was surprised recently to learn that my shop-built wheels on one bike
were NOT tons heavier than the pair of Bontrager Race Lite wheels that I
recently took off of the other bike. I only got as far as weighing the
rear wheels, but the Campy Record/32 DT Swiss spoke/Velocity AeroHead
wheel with the Record cassette on it was only 90 grams heavier than the
24 spoke Race Lite, without a cassette. Unless the Ti/Steel cassette is
awfully light, I was going to do a swap and end up with a heavier rear
wheel and bike.

Now I'm reduced to switching from wire bead Vittoria Rubinos to folding
Rubino Pros to save any more weight. There are 160 grams to be gained
there.

I may have to start eating carefully again....

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 8, 9:43*pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hi All,
>
> > I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
> > be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.
>
> > First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
> > and weaknesses.
>
> > The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
> > back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
> > (until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
> > brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.
>
> > My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
> > Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
> > very aero, and heavy.
>
> > I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
> > 28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
> > which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
> > probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
> > disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
> > flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
> > these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.
>
> > So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
> > available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
> > than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
> > I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
> > V's.
>
> > But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
> > laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
> > On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
> > there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
> > on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.
>
> > Joseph
>
> Joseph,
> Be sure you weigh the wheels you have, including the "every day" wheels.
>
> I was surprised recently to learn that my shop-built wheels on one bike
> were NOT tons heavier than the pair of Bontrager Race Lite wheels that I
> recently took off of the other bike. *I only got as far as weighing the
> rear wheels, but the Campy Record/32 DT Swiss spoke/Velocity AeroHead
> wheel with the Record cassette on it was only 90 grams heavier than the
> 24 spoke Race Lite, without a cassette. *Unless the Ti/Steel cassette is
> awfully light, I was going to do a swap and end up with a heavier rear
> wheel and bike.
>
> Now I'm reduced to switching from wire bead Vittoria Rubinos to folding
> Rubino Pros to save any more weight. *There are 160 grams to be gained
> there.
>
> I may have to start eating carefully again....

My Ultegra/Deep-V's aren't that bad, but my lightweight set (built
myself) beats them by about 1100g!

The new ones I'll be making with the DA hubs will be well heavier than
those, but still quite a bit lighter than the every day wheels. But
most importantly, they will be much more aero. Once done, I will have
3 wheelsets each with a distinct character: rugged, light, aero.

Joseph

daveornee

Radial provides the stiffest wheel especially if you do heads in:
1. Spokes are the shortest possible
2. Spoke support angle is the highest possible.

Radial NDS only makes sense if you do heads out to attain a lower spoke support angle compared to 2X and thus a more even balance of spoke tension left to right.
CX-Ray are very durable, light and aero, but they aren't as stiff as 14/15 DB spokes. As you well know, they are ~5x more expensive per spoke compared to Sapim Race 14/15 DB. I don't think you get much of the aero contribution from the spokes in the DS rear.

Colin Campbell

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 8, 9:43 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
>>> be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.
>>> First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
>>> and weaknesses.
>>> The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
>>> back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
>>> (until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
>>> brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.
>>> My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
>>> Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
>>> very aero, and heavy.
>>> I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
>>> 28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
>>> which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
>>> probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
>>> disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
>>> flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
>>> these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.
>>> So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
>>> available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
>>> than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
>>> I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
>>> V's.
>>> But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
>>> laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
>>> On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
>>> there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
>>> on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.
>>> Joseph
>> Joseph,
>> Be sure you weigh the wheels you have, including the "every day" wheels.
>>
>> I was surprised recently to learn that my shop-built wheels on one bike
>> were NOT tons heavier than the pair of Bontrager Race Lite wheels that I
>> recently took off of the other bike. I only got as far as weighing the
>> rear wheels, but the Campy Record/32 DT Swiss spoke/Velocity AeroHead
>> wheel with the Record cassette on it was only 90 grams heavier than the
>> 24 spoke Race Lite, without a cassette. Unless the Ti/Steel cassette is
>> awfully light, I was going to do a swap and end up with a heavier rear
>> wheel and bike.
>>
>> Now I'm reduced to switching from wire bead Vittoria Rubinos to folding
>> Rubino Pros to save any more weight. There are 160 grams to be gained
>> there.
>>
>> I may have to start eating carefully again....
>
> My Ultegra/Deep-V's aren't that bad, but my lightweight set (built
> myself) beats them by about 1100g!
>
> The new ones I'll be making with the DA hubs will be well heavier than
> those, but still quite a bit lighter than the every day wheels. But
> most importantly, they will be much more aero. Once done, I will have
> 3 wheelsets each with a distinct character: rugged, light, aero.
>
> Joseph

Then you'll need four more legs on two more bodies, so that you can use
them all!

Ron Ruff

On May 8, 11:36*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
> laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
> On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
> there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
> on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.

Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume that
they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they
should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low gear
mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and
radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial heads
in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral
stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS, you
won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS tension
will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays all
around.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 9, 5:19*am, Ron Ruff <rruffrr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 8, 11:36*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
> > laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
> > On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
> > there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
> > on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.
>
> Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume that
> they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they
> should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low gear
> mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and
> radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial heads
> in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral
> stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS, you
> won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS tension
> will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays all
> around.

Sounds good. But is there any specific reason I would be better off
with radial NDS over 2x all the way? While the wheels are aero and
will be used in races that take advantage of that, it may well happen
that there will be short steep hill sprints which will result in huge
torque.

Joseph


Joseph

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com

On May 8, 11:36*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really
> be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements.
>
> First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths
> and weaknesses.
>
> The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed
> back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok
> (until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The
> brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section.
>
> My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs,
> Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not
> very aero, and heavy.
>
> I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front,
> 28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs
> which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is
> probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a
> disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow
> flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention
> these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS.
>
> So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not
> available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges
> than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy.
> I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep-
> V's.
>
> But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
> laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray.
> On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is
> there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray
> on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.
>
> Joseph

At 205 pounds and remembering that CX-rays are pretty thin, 2 cross
front and 3 cross rear, laced inside pulling or head-out, due to the
pulling spoke flange overlap. If you were starting from scratch, at
least 32h rear, IMO.

daveornee

Different lacing patterns do different things in response to dynamic loading of the wheel.
Ron Ruff's radial NDS side suggestion would give you the stiffest wheel because the NDS spokes heads in give the highest possible spoke support angle along with the shortest possible spoke length. My suggestion of heads out gives a more tension balanced approach making the NDS spokes take up more of the load. Either way, if any torque is transmitted to the NDS side spokes, they will increase in tension due to the torque. If you choose 2X NDS any torque transmitted to NDS will be shared with the DS side spokes.
2x NDS is a small compromise in stiffness and load sharing due to the spoke support angles, while assisting in the small amount of torque that is handled on NDS. I would be comfortable building your wheels radial front and 2X both sides rear.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 9, 3:32*pm, daveornee <daveornee.395...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com Wrote:
>
> > On May 9, 5:19*am, Ron Ruff <rruffrr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On May 8, 11:36*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> > > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more
> > > > laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be
> > CX-Ray.
> > > > On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS?
> > Is
> > > > there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use
> > CX-Ray
> > > > on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs.
>
> > > Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume
> > that
> > > they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they
> > > should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low
> > gear
> > > mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and
> > > radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial
> > heads
> > > in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral
> > > stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS,
> > you
> > > won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS
> > tension
> > > will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays
> > all
> > > around.
>
> > Sounds good. But is there any specific reason I would be better off
> > with radial NDS over 2x all the way? While the wheels are aero and
> > will be used in races that take advantage of that, it may well happen
> > that there will be short steep hill sprints which will result in huge
> > torque.
>
> > Joseph
>
> > Joseph
>
> Different lacing patterns do different things in response to dynamic
> loading of the wheel.
> Ron Ruff's radial NDS side suggestion would give you the stiffest wheel
> because the NDS spokes heads in give the highest possible spoke support
> angle along with the shortest possible spoke length. * My suggestion of
> heads out gives a more tension balanced approach making the NDS spokes
> take up more of the load. * Either way, if any torque is transmitted to
> the NDS side spokes, they will increase in tension due to the torque.
> If you choose 2X NDS any torque transmitted to NDS will be shared with
> the DS side spokes.
> 2x NDS is a small compromise in stiffness and load sharing due to the
> spoke support angles, while assisting in the small amount of torque that
> is handled on NDS. *I would be comfortable building your wheels radial
> front and 2X both sides rear.
>
> --
> daveornee

There is some interesting stuff here:

http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/lacingsr.htm

My main concern is lateral stiffness in the front, and lateral
stiffnes and torque resistance in the rear. I don't want the brakes to
rub when I am out of the saddle, and I certainly don't want the
occasional "boing" feeling I get with the rear wheel on my lightweight
wheels when I stand in high torque conditions.

So radial in the front sounds like the way to go for stiffness. Heads
in. Pretty straight forward.

What do you guys think about the 2x NDS, 3x DS recommended in the link
above? And the reasoning?

Joseph

daveornee

Either the reasoning used in the "chapter" is incorrect or I don't understand what he is saying. Either way 3X for 28 hole will not help anything.

mike.a.schwab@gmail.com

http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/hikingbikinglacing.htm
Suggested lacing pattern to keep shoeslaces away from the chain.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 9, 10:19*pm, "mike.a.sch...@gmail.com"
<mike.a.sch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/hikingbikinglacing.htm
> Suggested lacing pattern to keep shoeslaces away from the chain.

Getting a shoelace tangled in the pedal spindle of a fixed gear bike
is no fun!

I think I'll try that pattern.

Joseph