Page 4 - Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

02-05.-2008, 11:05 PM

#46

Rolfrae

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne666

I think it's been declining gradually over the last few years. I think especially the efficacy of EPO doping has been drastically reduced, first with the introduction of the test and then the last couple of years with far, far more effective timing of tests. What this means is that if you make the commitment to blood doping you could really get an advantage and this explains how Guttierez was able to finish 2nd while Basso was soft-pedaling everyone off his wheel in the mountains.

I think nowadays it is probably possible to for a clean rider to compete well with a regular doper because you simply can't prepare all that effectively anymore. However, any good rider blood doping will have a large and distinct advantage over other riders.

What happened to Guitterez, he was on team LPR but not any more? Such a "talent" gone to waste?

03-05.-2008, 12:28 AM

#47

Wayne666

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunder

have a look at Rasmussens hematocrit and hemoglobin numbers.

highest he got was 44. Yet he was where Riis was in 96 and Ullrich in 97 and Pantani later. Record speeds, but well under 50 hematocrit.

They have obviously got blood doping down to the point where they can suppress the blood numbers and manipulate the bio passport.

Do we know if Rasmussen had normal bio passport numbers?

03-05.-2008, 12:29 AM

#48

Wayne666

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfrae

What happened to Guitterez, he was on team LPR but not any more? Such a "talent" gone to waste?

His "talent" has probably been laying low since his arrest

03-05.-2008, 12:47 AM

#49

thunder

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne666

Do we know if Rasmussen had normal bio passport numbers?

Michael Rasmussen's blood profile for 2005-2007

Date Test-taken-Hematocrit-Haemoglobin

16.03.2005 Peschiera 41 13.9
18.04.2005 Abano Terme 40.9 13.7
20.04.2005 Fleche Wallone 42.4 14.2
05.05.2005 Giro d'Italia 40.4 13.5
11.05.2005 Giro d'Italia 39.8 13.6
30.06.2005 Tour de France 39.8 14
11.07.2005 TdF 39.8 13.9
23.07.2005 TdF 39.2 13.5
04.05.2006 Giro d'Italia 38.8 12.9
18.05.2006 Giro 39 13.8
07.06.2006 Peschiera 42.8 13.9
27.06.2006 Peschiera 43.7 13.9
29.06.2006 Tour de France 40.4 13.7
11.07.2006 TdF 40.5 13.6
22.07.2006 TdF 38.1 12.3
24.08.2006 Vuelta 39.1 12.8
13.09.2006 Vuelta 36.612.8
21.11.2006 Abano 38.8 13.4
30.12.2006 Bussolengo 43.7 14.3
18.04.2007 Peschiera 38.7 12.8
05.07.2007 Tour de France 40.3 13.3
17.07.2007 TdF 43.1 14.2
24.07.2007 TdF 43.9 14.4
16.10.2007 Peschiera 40.4 13.7

Source: UCI and various laboratories and hospitals

Last edited by thunder : 03-05.-2008 at 12:54 AM.

03-05.-2008, 01:04 AM	#50
Wayne666 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 443	Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ? Yes, but are those the important ones for detecting blood doping? I'm pretty sure the biopassport looks at more values than just those two and some of the other parameters are critical for indicating blood doping, no?

03-05.-2008, 01:41 AM	#51
Eldrack Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,067	Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ? His 2007 numbers look very suspicious. Haemocrit should go down during a long intensive race like the TdF. In fact you would expect that the riders would go slightly yellow due to the number of red blood cells they kill off during such an activity, the yellow being due to the billirubin (spelling, and I think it's that) produced due to the dead cells in the liver. The fact that his went up during the TdF is indicative of blood doping. Not proof of course, just looks (according to my undestanding of the science) damn suspicious.

03-05.-2008, 01:56 AM

#52

Wayne666

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldrack

Not proof of course, just looks (according to my undestanding of the science) damn suspicious.

There was a study done of blood parameters of rider in a GT back in the 80's (i.e. pre-EPO era, and almost certainly no or little blood doping). IIRC, the average was something like a 2-3% drop in HCT over the course of the race but the variation was such that a small percentage (< 10%) would have maintained or even increased HCT over the course of the race.

I wish I had saved it, the last few times I've tried to find it on Pubmed I've been unable.

03-05.-2008, 03:03 AM

#53

poulidor

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne666

At the begining of Hct control, the measurement and equipment were not perfect.
I believe that the first study were not enough accurate to conclude that 10% of riders could have increased their hct level. And recently everyone is saying that hct could not only drop. Of course to measure the hct of a dehydrated athlete could change the value temporaly but riders who are dehydrated would have rapidly renounced the race.

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03-05.-2008, 03:09 AM

#54

italiano

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunder

http://paris.thover.com/story.php?l=en&ID=70

Rasmussen's blood analys by Damsgaard

Quote:

In an attempt to prove he didn't use doping Michael Rasmussen published the results of his blood analysis. The information he published contains 24 hematocrit- and hemoglobin-values from blood tests in the past three years. All values are under the tolerated maximum values.
According to Rasmussen this proves that he never used doping (or at least in those three years), but Rasmus Damsgaard, a Danish expert on doping, analysed these values and comes to another conclusion: according to him Rasmussen did have a blood transfusion during the Tour or followed an EPO cure just before the Tour. Damsgaard says the increase of 3.6% in his hematocrit value and 1,1 gram per deciliter for his hemoglobin value is 'suspect', 'physiologically impossible' and scientifically impossible to explain in another way than that Rasmussen used doping ... These values normally decrease during a big Tour (7 riders of the CSC Team - followed by Damsgaard - for example showed a decrease of 12 to 22 percent) and this was also the case for Rasmussen during the Tour in 2005 and 2006

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03-05.-2008, 05:48 AM

#55

RAGT

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne666

1980's, that was early... You're sure it's not the 1998 study from the vuelta you are thinking of?

Chicharro JL, Hoyos J, Bandre´s F, Terrados N, Fernandez B, Lucia A. Thyroid hormone levels during a three week professional road cycling competition. Horm Res 2001: 56: 159–164.

I do not have access to the article, but according to other articles, they reported haemoglobin and haematocrit levels at the end of the vuelta on the 16 riders they studied (13.8 +/- 0.7 g/dLand 41.9 +/- 2.4 %). I do not know if they reported the levels at the beginning, but that seems propable.

03-05.-2008, 06:39 AM

#56

Ashley.S.Olsen

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAGT

1980's, that was early... You're sure it's not the 1998 study from the vuelta you are thinking of?

Chicharro JL, Hoyos J, Bandre´s F, Terrados N, Fernandez B, Lucia A. Thyroid hormone levels during a three week professional road cycling competition. Horm Res 2001: 56: 159–164.

when did cycling become science?

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03-05.-2008, 07:01 AM

#57

Crankyfeet

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

A post by smoothie in BF circa July, 2005 that may be interesting. It relates to hematocrit being an outdated benchmark of doped blood even then....

Quote:

So, how do you think riders are getting the same performance benefit from drugs now, as they were when they could raise their red blood cell count by %30?

Because the money and desire to win is always stronger than the desire to catch the cheaters, The racers are always several steps ahead.

Before Epogen came around, guys were showing Hematorcrit levels between 40 to 44, then the EPO abuse started and guys were testing as high as 56% or more (Bjarne Riis)

Then the UCI put in the 50% cut off, and miraculously every one started coming in at 49% In the Pre race medical checks prior to the TdF, the average HCT is lower, around 44, but everyone knows these tests are coming, so getting the value down temporarily is easy. But HCT tests are outdated already, with the introduction of Hemoglobin based Oxygen Carriers. Or HBOC's

These latest doping methods no longer raise the hematocrit, but work by increasing the pace at which the blood releases the oxygen into the tissues. Actovegin was one of the first attempts at this, as was Pero fluro carbon or PFC (type Mauro Gianetti and PFC into google) Mauro is now Director Sportiff at Saunier Duval by the way..

PFCs, are insoluble in water but can absorb huge quantities of gases--some products can dissolve more than 100 times more oxygen per volume than blood plasma, and are biologically inert.
The capability of PFCs as an oxygen transport medium were displayed when a study showed that a rat immersed in the solution could survive for hours--it literally breathed liquid. Becuase they are inert, they are expelled unaltered through the lungs in just a few hours..But there are no breathalyzers at the finish line...

Now they use Hemopure, Oxyglobin and Hemassist, These products actually lower the Hematocrit count, as the artifical hemoglobin augments the natural. They are also impossible to detect. It's engineered from Humans and won't show up in a blood test, and passes in the urine with no recognizable metabolites. There is currently no test for them.

HBOCs are excellent oxygen transporters; typically they have 2-4 times the oxygen transport capacity of normal human hemoglobin, but also do not have as strong a chemical bond, meaning the oxygen is released easier to muscle tissues. A 1995 study of Hemopure found greater oxygen uptake and lower lactate levels when compared to a control group using the autologous transfusions (blood re-injected in the donor) that the 1984 Olympic team used.

And while EPO must be taken two weeks or more out from competition to have an appreciable effect, an HBOC is effective within minutes of injection. The only good news is that they only last about 2 days, hence the police raids on the team cars from time to time, as you would need a steady supply for a week race, or really just a a couple of bags for the hard stages.

The really sobering part of all this, is the information above is already out, so its probably outdated. I can only imagine what the current and future methods are like. The European peleton has been doped for over 100 years, I don't think thats going to change anytime soon. Clean Pro sports is a myth.

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03-05.-2008, 07:26 AM

#58

TheDarkLord

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

A post by smoothie in BF circa July, 2005 that may be interesting. It relates to hematocrit being an outdated benchmark of doped blood even then....

Thanks Cranky!

03-05.-2008, 07:32 AM

#59

whiteboytrash

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley.S.Olsen

when did cycling become science?

When did science become cycling ?

03-05.-2008, 08:19 AM

#60

Crankyfeet

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Re: Simoni talking it up - can he win the Giro ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

Thanks Cranky!

Some more smoothie gold from 2005...

Quote:

The UCI accepts the doping unless its out in public, Its all run by ex racers anyways..
This is the same UCI that allowed team doctors and personal sports performance doctors of the athletes to run the doping controls!!

This is the UCI that allowed the post stage testing of a TdF stage that finished in Belgium to be carried out by the Flemish Government! Not only did a Belgian rider win the stage, and a $10,000 diamond, and an audience with the King, He wasn't tested! In fact no Belgian riders were tested that day.

The UCI needs the racers and the races, just as much as the racers need them..

After the Festina Affair in 1998, the UCI recommended a 3 month ban for dopers, 3 months....

When WADA came on the scene, any sports organization that wouldn't sign the WADA code, would not be allowed to have their sport in the olympics, guess which organization was the last to sign? The UCI.. and the provisions they could not agree on? Surprise out of competition testing, and the length of punishment for doping offenders. WADA wanted 2 years, the UCI wanted 6 months.. Their reasoning? "Longer sentences would prohibit our members from maintaing their sole source of income for their families" so you see who's side they are really on..

The UCI isn't trying to crack down on doping, the UCI is trying to keep the racing going, faster, and higher, the bigger the crowds, the better. The UCI doping war is just PR spin.

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