What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Fday

Before you are so sure with your NOPE answer to your question you might want to review a list of riders using them. A fair number of national and world champions whose names you might recognize are on the list. But, then, I am not sure of what your definitions of "markedly successful" is. :-)

Fday

There is a substantial difference between one legged pedaling and PC pedaling. In one legged pedaling it is necessary to apply force on the upstroke to drive the bicycle, to keep it going at a steady speed. When pedaling with PC's it is not necessary to apply any force on the upstroke to keep the bike at a steady speed as the bicycle is kept at a steady speed during the "upstroke" by the opposite leg, which is now on the downstroke. All that is necessary is to completely unweight on the backstroke plus a gram or two to get the cranks up. That is way different than pedaling with one leg, plus the rider is balanced in the saddle, something that doesn't happen with one-legged pedaling usually. Another thing that is different is one-legged pedaling is usually done at very low cadences of 30-50. PC'ing can be done at normal cadences, albeit not for very long in the beginning.

Of course, it is possible to apply force on the backstroke with PC's but most people do not. It is enough work for most to just increase the potential energy of the leg from the down to the up position (which the rider gets back as power to the wheel on the down stroke). So, the rider is doing substantial work on the back stroke, just not applying much force to the pedals.

If A Coggan trained on the PC's for a year, he would definitely increase his power. Only question is by how much. He is at the pointy end of the stick so it probably wouldn't be by 40%, but I bet it would surprise him (actually, any improvement would surprise him, I am sure).

grahamspringett

Where's the list? And why don't you use conventional advertising where you befriend potential buyers? Irritating and badgering doesn't seem to work.

And why so down on power meters? They don't compete against your product. If you want to persuade people with figures, which seem to be what people here give credence to, why not use a PowerTap to prove how effective Power Cranks can be?

I think you need to re-examine your marketing technique. Persuade us with results measured with a power meter. They can be your ally, not competitor!

I don't doubt the effectiveness of improving the up stroke, it's just that your approach has put off a lot of your potential market and in this game, as in many, word of mouth is vital.

fergie

But we come back the findings of your studies that people become better at using Jujucranks but it doesn't help them to ride faster than those using normal cranks and doesn't make them better on normal cranks and can actually make them worse.

Plenty of good research showing that trying to replicate your intended sporting movement (baseball batters using overweight bats, sprinters running downhill) can actually have negative effects.

Anyone with a powermeter can tell you that training on the flat doesn't make you a better climber. Track riders heading to Beijing are flocking to tracks around the world that are a similar shape to the track there so they can prepare specifically for their events (not sure if they will have smog pumped in to be truly specific).

So if Cadel wins the tour this year it will be in spite of using Powercranks. Just like Hayden Godfrey. Who won a World Title this year on the track although he is producing less power than the past. Just lucky they made a track event (Omnium) that suits him down to the ground.

__________________
Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
http://hamishferguson.blogspot.com/

Fday

Where is the list? Well, for starters you could try our web site if you were interested in finding out some of the names, but, since you asked, I will drop a few names for you. Bettini, Evans, Rogers, Leipheimer, Hincapie, Museeuw, and on and on and on on the cycling side. The current Italian National time-trial champion (Pinnoti) is even blogging at out site and another Italian to pro (Ricco) posted a Youtube video of him riding the cranks and talking about the upcoming season (which is how we found out he was on the cranks). But, what do these people know about cycling that you don't know?

Today Peter Cannell won the US National ITT for 30-34 by more than 2 minutes, averaging over 29 mph for the 38 km course. He started training on the cranks in October of last year.

I am not down on PM's. It just seems that many think they are the cat's meow when it comes to training and racing and many of the biggest advocates (some even having written books on the subject) seem particularly down on my product. I simply asked the question as to whether there is any real evidence that might justify such a view regarding the superiority of PM's as training or racing devices. Because there seems to be no "satisfactory" answer to this group, some here decided to attack me and my product for simply asking the question? So be it.

Fday

Ugh, getting better is not just about power. It is about going faster than your opponent. That can also involve endurance (which is where efficiency might play a big role) and aerodynamics, which can adversely affect power.

So, Cadel is not going to win the tour because he is simply been on PC's for about 5 years or so but because he has integrated them into his program in a way to make him a superior cyclist. Getting good involves a lot of hard work. PC's is just one tool towards that end. If you choose to ignore its potential, that is your choice. But, it would appear, he has not. If he thought they were useless I am sure he would have sent them back 5 years ago and told us to stop using his name. He did not and he has not. You, on the other hand, have never used them but, somehow, seem to be able to declare them useless. Who should people be listening to?

fergie

Endurance, power over time.

Aerodynamics, improving how you use your power.

But there are many factors that lead to a result.


It's just making a informed decision based on the research and knowing what is really important for cycling and what isn't.

__________________
Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
http://hamishferguson.blogspot.com/

n crowley

Where in the 1 to 12 o'c pedaling circle does a PC rider stop unweighting ?

Fday

The PC rider cannot stop unweighting before TDC. If the pedal is moving up they need to be unweighting. I guess it is theoretically possible to stop or reduce the unweighting a little before TDC if they are pushing forward with enough force such that the combined force is still forward. But, watching people get tired, if they stop unweighting early and anticipate the down stroke, the pedal goes backwards.

mullerrj

Fday..I think it's sad that you've used "this forum" for PC marketing purposes. At least that's what I think..after reading 50% of the replies and based on your original question which prompted this ridiculous perpetual thread. Besides, you might want to cease before it gets ugly and you either say something you regret..or someone else does...if they haven't already.

fergie

Bit late for that. Over on Slowtwitch.com he spammed a thread congratulating Andy Coggan on winning a US title. Then when it turned out a sponsored rider had stopped using PCs it came out that Frank had sent him bullying emails!

What a class act!

__________________
Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
http://hamishferguson.blogspot.com/

Fday

You might want to do a little fact checking before you spout off.

Does a sponsored athlete owe any kind of duty to his sponsor to say: not diss the product he is sponsored by, especially when he has to lie to do so. This already national champion athlete had reported to us that he saw a 9 % increase in one power metric (he gave us the numbers "so here are the hard numbers, NOT for disclosure. I usually do my 3:00 VO2s at 430w on the rollers. Today I ripped 2 off at 453 and then, get this, 464! I was amazed.". I know, it is all placebo effect) within the first few times of using the PC's. He repeatedly blogged and told us about all the positive changes he was seeing, despite not using the product anywhere near how we recommend. Then, without telling us, he posts that "power meters work, powercranks don't" and tells everyone he is glad he ditched them. We think he is a happy camper and when we say something about his amazing result his post gets thrown back in my face. It was embarrassing to say the least but in reviewing our data it appears to be a lie.

Writing an angry email to this effect to him is not bullying. If you think that this behavior of this sponsored athlete was acceptable why don't you say so now.

I can only think of two reasonable explanations for this unreasonable behavior. When he had his brain surgery they removed the part of the brain where he remembered his improvements he had reported. Or, he thought he had seen all the improvement he was going to see and wanted to keep the competition off of them. If you can think of another explanation I am all ears. I tried to engage him to explain himself. He refused.

mullerrj

That's unfortunate. I'm sure he regrets spamming that thread. We ALL say things in life (at one time or another), in the heat of the moment, we later regret...and apologize for. I know I have. The BIGGER men will admit they were wrong, apologize, and move on. Hope that's how this one turns out..since it seems to have gotten personal...which it always seems to...when a thread like this one starts. Cheers Rob

lnyndhlp

Class act indeed