Landis is racing the Cohutta 100 on Saturday

thoughtforfood

I read it and thought it said "what happened to his pet gerbal after the bonk".....and I'm thinking that this thing is a whole lot deeper than I imagined.

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Crankyfeet

Can someone explain to me though how the short term testosterone infusion explains him being superhuman for one day?

BTW jimmypop... I'm as much a believer as anyone that Floyd is a doper. I just also think that Hein Verbruggen has even less integrity than a cheating cyclist and IMO could quite easily be capable of using underhand methods to cut down a pro cyclist he doesn't like.

BTW - I don't take it personally if anyone (inc. friends) attacks these ideas/views. I would quite quickly change my mind if someone showed how it was not possible or highly implausible. And I appreciate this is like stepping 18 months back in history and rehashing 10,000 posts on the subject.

thunder

it cant. never said it was the reason.

That was the flawed defense from FL's camp.

confusedfan

Defence as in FL's camp said "it doesn't help, so therefore he couldn't have done it" ? (trying to remember, but not willing to delve too far into the memories of opposing viewpoints attacking each other viciously at DPF for months on end over such issues...)

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TheDarkLord

I think everyone is in agreement that testosterone cannot make you superhuman. It is a recovery drug. His superhuman performance was due to other dope, not testosterone.

I don't think HV did anything to create the inflated result though. Obviously, I don't have any proof that this is not the case, but manipulating someone's sample to out him creates a very dangerous precedent, and is also risky. To do something like that would involve the use of an insider in the lab - what if that someone blows the whistle sometime later? I think it more likely that FL somehow screwed up with his testosterone doping...

Crankyfeet

Yeah... I realise you said something different. I was answering jimmypop.

It also explains to me why he would ring up LeMond. I couldn't fathom that one out before. Why would he call LeMond? And admit that he has doped? I think its because he knew LeMond was paranoid about the UCI screwing/framing himself and that LeMond was publicly stating the view that the weak link he always felt (before Landis) was the UCI's custody of the sample from cyclist to lab. But once he admitted that he had doped... LeMond turned on him and said he wouldn't support him in court.

I think he knows they screwed him (even though he knows he is a doper). I think that is why he felt he had a chance going for the chain of custody and manipulation defense. Because he knows there was manipulation somewhere.

I just don't buy the "he farked it up" explanation that easily. I was always a believer in the bad transfusion theory (and I would even go so far as to claim to be the first to post it on CF), but there is just too much to lose by making those mistakes. I think their control of the program was better than that. Unless those mistakes are happening all the time and the UCI/labs are just ignoring it... which I doubt.

I don't think the labs are involved. It would be nearly impossible to get them on board en masse in any conspiracy.

Crankyfeet

Not in the lab - they tamper with or replace the sample before the lab. Is this possible? They could have urine of the top cyclists going back years kept in cold storage. It would only involve one UCI insider who had custody of the sample, or was able to get access to it, to tamper with or effect the switch of the sample.

TheDarkLord

Once again, a bit improbable IMO. They need to know which sample tested with the anomaly that they wanted; also I don't know the procedure used in sealing and labeling the samples; I would be a bit surprised if they can simply swap samples like that.

Crankyfeet

Yes... but if you were a power crazy guy who wanted to have the ultimate stick to punish errant pros with... correctly categorizing or labelling samples with the characteristics you desire would be not that difficult... if it was a dedicated project. This also explains to me how they can keep dopers looking clean (like Lance). It's not the labs. The UCI give the labs a clean sample. Not the one Lance just pissed. Lance was paying the payola... Floyd wasn't.

snood

5 Floyd samples had testosterone. Floyd not ask for DNA match. Floyd used testosterone. Used extra patch after bonk. Floyd know samples his.

Also used blood, EPO, HGH, insulin, cortisone. Doping tests to catch dopers not to find dope used.

Powerful Pete

Don't get it. What is the advantage for the UCI... risking (as then happened) having the winner of the Tour de France declared a year or two following the fact? Having to fight off a direct attack by the organisers on the one thing you hold close to your heart... the Pro Tour? I still do not see motive for going after Floyd...

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TheDarkLord

That is one theory (that UCI gives clean samples for testing). The alternate theory is that the labs report the positive tests to the UCI who choose to shred the results and keep mum about it. The labs are not supposed to know whose sample they are testing, the French lab leaking results notwithstanding...

Crankyfeet

Yeah italiano... but I agree, Floyd was using the dope (synthetic testosterone). It's just that all he had to do was pass the screen test... not the IRMS test. And I think he knew how to pass the first screen test. And if H-V has Floyd's actual piss kept in cold storage... a DNA match is useless.

Crankyfeet

Yeah but positives are supposedly not that common. If the lab finds one anonymously, and no public announcement is forthcoming from the UCI... the Lab knows that the positive has been hidden, irrespective of not knowing the identity of the cyclist.