Waiting in traffic lines.

Marz

On Apr 17, 4:16 pm, N...@wodger.demon.co.uk (Roger Merriman) wrote:
> Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 17, 4:05 am, "J. Chisholm" <jc...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > Simon Mason wrote:
>
> > > > "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:cb3e1daa-75a2-4fe4-a622-8d8645c9918f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > > >> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> > > >> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> > > >> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> > > >> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> > > >> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
> > > >> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
> > > >> laters,
>
> > > >> Marz
>
> > > > 9/10 I will ride to the head of the queue/line or past slow moving
> > > > vehicles. Sometimes if there is a bus or lorry in front and there is a
> > > > chance the lights will change before I can get past then it's not worth
> > > > the risk. Keeping in the queue just negates the advantage of being on a
> > > > bike.
>
> > > My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
> > > good ASL.
> > > Take primary position behind first vehicle. The driver of the first
> > > vehicle will be looking at the lights to see when they change, and even
> > > if you think he should see you he may not. In addition an increasing
> > > proportion of drivers don't realise that 'indicators' should be used in
> > > advance of a manoeuvre to indicate intentions rather that show "I'm now
> > > turning left", as if it isn't bloddy obvious by that stage. At a
> > > junction I use almost daily I recon only half vehicles that are first in
> > > Q indicate in advance that they're turn left, with the other half either
> > > not indicating at all or only indicating as they move off to make the turn.
>
> > > Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
> > > off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
> > > at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.
>
> > > Jim Chisholm- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Never seen an ASL in Houston and I doubt I ever will, but I agree with
> > not getting ahead of the first car. He's just watching for the light
> > to go green and has assumed that nothing is going to pull in front of
> > him after he's stopped for the red light.
>
> not sure i really see the problem, as such very few cars etc move off
> from the lights with any great speed, i certinaly don't have much
> problems leaving the traffic behind at least across the junction.
>
> roger
> --www.rogermerriman.com

Not always getting ahead of the lead car is something I've done to
moderate my cycling here in Texas. Back in the UK I'd almost always
get to the head of the queue and be gone and away once the light
changed. Because drivers are allowed to turn right on red, they'll
very often stop at the light across the whole lane waiting, not for
the light to change, but for a gap in on coming traffic.And so their
attention is never on what may be filtering on their right, bikes on
the road or peds on the pavement/sidewalk. Plus the last person you
want to piss off is a Texan driver, that gun rack in the back of that
pick up is there for a reason and I've already had one gun pointed at
me. One of the funnier and witty bumper stickers says, " Keep honking
buddy, I'm reloadin". http://www.lakecitygraphics.com/ima...cs/Honking1.jpg




laters,

Marz

frkrygow@gmail.com

On Apr 18, 1:15 am, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> Doug Cimper wrote:
> > victor....@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Apr 16, 2:00 pm, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> And as for right turning traffic, you're correct drivers never look
> >>> right before going right...
>
> >> Why should they look there (beyond looking ahead to the right for
> >> traffic in the crosswalk)?
>
> >> If one is in the right most lane, it's quite reasonable to expect that
> >> there is nothing coming up behind on the right when one is making a
> >> right turn.
>
> > Because if a pedestrian is stepping off the corner that they are turning
> > on, what will happen?
> > ~
>
> Quite of few pedestrians are hit this way by drivers not looking for
> them. The situation is bad enough that in some places (such as college
> campuses), right turns are prohibited at certain intersections (except
> for buses and emergency vehicles).
>
> Being "right-hooked" is also a reason why riding at speed on the
> sidewalk and crossing intersections is a very bad idea, and why "bicycle
> lanes" on the sidewalk can be death traps.

Ditto for bicycle lanes on the street. Two of last year's cyclist
fatalities in Portland were standing in bike lanes at red lights.
Large vehicles at their left crushed them doing right turns on red.

When you're at the same speed as the motor vehicles, you should almost
always be right in line with the motor vehicles. And "same speed"
includes zero speed.

- Frank Krygowski

Marz

On Apr 17, 4:16*pm, N...@wodger.demon.co.uk (Roger Merriman) wrote:
> Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 17, 4:05 am, "J. Chisholm" <jc...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > Simon Mason wrote:
>
> > > > "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:cb3e1daa-75a2-4fe4-a622-8d8645c9918f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com....
> > > >> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> > > >> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> > > >> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> > > >> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> > > >> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is,do
> > > >> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
> > > >> laters,
>
> > > >> Marz
>
> > > > 9/10 I will ride to the head of the queue/line or past slow moving
> > > > vehicles. Sometimes if there is a bus or lorry in front and there isa
> > > > chance the lights will change before I can get past then it's not worth
> > > > the risk. Keeping in the queue just negates the advantage of being on a
> > > > bike.
>
> > > My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
> > > good ASL.
> > > Take primary position behind first vehicle. The driver of the first
> > > vehicle will be looking at the lights to see when they change, and even
> > > if you think he should see you he may not. In addition an increasing
> > > proportion of drivers don't realise that 'indicators' should be used in
> > > advance of a manoeuvre to indicate intentions rather that show "I'm now
> > > turning left", as if it isn't bloddy obvious by that stage. At a
> > > junction I use almost daily I recon only half vehicles that are first in
> > > Q indicate in advance that they're turn left, with the other half either
> > > not indicating at all or only indicating as they move off to make the turn.
>
> > > Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
> > > off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
> > > at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.
>
> > > Jim Chisholm- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Never seen an ASL in Houston and I doubt I ever will, but I agree with
> > not getting ahead of the first car. He's just watching for the light
> > to go green and has assumed that nothing is going to pull in front of
> > him after he's stopped for the red light.
>
> not sure i really see the problem, as such very few cars etc move off
> from the lights with any great speed, i certinaly don't have much
> problems leaving the traffic behind at least across the junction.
>
> roger
> --www.rogermerriman.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not always getting ahead of the lead car is something I've done to
moderate my cycling here in Texas. Back in the UK, I'd almost always
get to the head of the queue and be gone and away once the light
changed. Here, because drivers are allowed to turn right on red,
they'll very often stop at the light across the whole lane waiting,
not for the light to change, but for a gap in on coming traffic.And so
their attention is never on what may be filtering on their right,
bikes on the road or peds on the pavement/sidewalk. Plus the last
person you want to piss off is a Texan driver, that gun rack in the
back of that pick up is there for a reason and I've already had one
gun pointed at me. One of the funnier and witty bumper stickers says,
" Keep honking buddy, I'm reloadin". http://www.lakecitygraphics.com/ima...cs/Honking1.jpg




laters,

Adam Lea

"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fu9a2m$jqf$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> Rob Morley wrote:
>> In article <66pk9pF2l6kugU1@mid.individual.net>, Adam Lea
>> asrl07@yahoo.co.uk says...
>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fu6fhl$50u$2@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>> Adam Lea wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> I often wonder what to do in Central London where I can't pass on the
>>>>> left because it is too dangerous, can't pass on the right because I
>>>>> would be in the path of oncoming traffic, can't filter between lanes
>>>>> because the gap is too small, yet I often hear of people managing
>>>>> 12+mph averages in this area. I wonder how.
>>>>>
>>>> See <http://digave.com/videos/london06-digave_com.mpg> for advice on
>>>> riding in London.
>>>>
>>> Ah so that's the answer - use the "full width" of the road.
>> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
>> elbows. :-)
>> Seriously though, what a bunch of twats.
>
> Watching said video leaves me torn between admiration for the cyclists'
> skill and thinking they would be earning their just desserts if run over
> by a lorry/truck or bus.
>
> By the way, are those motorized rickshaws in the video?
>

They can't be that skilful, one of them fell off in the car park at the
beginning :-)

Matt O'Toole

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:04:15 +0000, Martin Dann wrote:

> One thing I have noticed in the last couple of months, is how my cycling
> speed affects how other road users treat me. The faster I go, the more I
> seem to be cut up, or receive abuse.
> In mid-Feb it was taking me just over an hour to commute to work, and now
> I am taking 40-45 minutes (still not fast enough). In Feb, I had hardly
> any trouble from motorists.
>
> However this could be due to road positioning, the faster I go, the
> further from the kerb I ride.

As you go faster, especially if you're making better time in traffic, it
frustrates other drivers so they'll try to compete with you -- as they
will when you're driving a car faster than they are. But it really gets
their goat to be "beaten" by a bicycle.

Also, if you're riding fast, they may assume you're trying to "beat" them,
and will return the gesture in-kind.

Their problem, not yours. Imagine going through life like that.

Just don't engage, or when you feel you've gotten their (negative)
attention, take active steps to disengage -- let them "beat" you, and
go on their miserable way.

Matt O.

Tom Keats

In article <pan.2008.04.18.18.26.12.895723@letterboxes.org>,
Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> writes:

> Also, if you're riding fast, they may assume you're trying to "beat" them,
> and will return the gesture in-kind.
>
> Their problem, not yours. Imagine going through life like that.

I think that's pretty much how it is. In my observations,
people are competitive and covetous by nature. Maybe
there's some kind of connection between crime and sport
in that regard? Anyway, if someone is seen to have some
/thing/ -- even the point in space where he or she is
standing/walking/riding/driving at the moment -- other
people will want it. Nevertheless there's a certain
advantage in the predictable behaviours of us humanoids
and hominids.

We bicycle riders /do/ develop a sense of what's coming,
when we see the body English of cars ahead of us. Like
those times when y'just know that guy coming in off the
sidestreet is gonna so-oh-obediently stop at the stop line,
and then just go without looking, right when you'd be
in his path. I can often even predict those mind-changers
who signal a right turn, let me position myself behind
them accordingly, and then switch to their left turn
signal and simultaneously commence turning left when
they think I'd be alongside 'em[*]. I think anybody
who rides among car traffic develops this sense. It's
nothing special or "gifted"; it's just too intangible
to properly articulate in language. In short, I guess
I'm just saying bike riders are /not/ stupid. We all
know that we can't afford to be stupid. We're not that
stupid. Neither, as you well know, do we suicidally barge
through red lights and into busy cross-traffic, as we're so
often accused of doing.

I know I'm not saying anything new to you or to any other
bicycle rider. I'm just trying to acknowledge that intangible
understanding by which we survive our fellow traffic.

> Just don't engage, or when you feel you've gotten their (negative)
> attention, take active steps to disengage -- let them "beat" you, and
> go on their miserable way.

That hearkens to my own personal Cycling Prime Directive:
keep the impatient drivers ahead of me, and the indecisive
drivers behind me. By their fruits shall ye know them.


cheers, & I'm rather partial to grapefruit, myself,
Tom
[*] I bet Eric Sande knows exactly of what I speak.

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats

In article <0d94641c-e85f-457f-9746-7fdc7974cf1c@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
frkrygow@gmail.com writes:
>>
>> Being "right-hooked" is also a reason why riding at speed on the
>> sidewalk and crossing intersections is a very bad idea, and why "bicycle
>> lanes" on the sidewalk can be death traps.
>
> Ditto for bicycle lanes on the street. Two of last year's cyclist
> fatalities in Portland were standing in bike lanes at red lights.
> Large vehicles at their left crushed them doing right turns on red.

That seems to be one of the most frequent bike fatality
situations -- rider gets stuck between a right-turning
large vehicle on their left, and a curb or abuttment or
whatever on their right.

> When you're at the same speed as the motor vehicles, you should almost
> always be right in line with the motor vehicles. And "same speed"
> includes zero speed.

Then that precludes filtering. Might as well just
drive a fat-assed, greenhouse-gas-farting machine
and get in line & wait with the other lusers.

I've heard it said that drivers don't like passing
a bicyle, only to have the bicycle pass them, and
then they "have" to pass the bicycle again.

I guess drivers hate being haunted by us.

Their sensitivities must certainly be set askew
whenever that happens. We mustn't upset the
sensitivities of drivers.

We must get in line.

Especially at late-night fast-food-restaurant
drive-thru's.

cheers, & VELORUTION (note the all-caps),
Tom


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

DougC

Tom Keats wrote:

>
> I've heard it said that drivers don't like passing
> a bicyle, only to have the bicycle pass them, and
> then they "have" to pass the bicycle again.
>


I don't give two shits about motorists annoyed that I pass them.
"Casual freedom" from some traffic laws are one of the advantages
bicycles have.
~

frkrygow@gmail.com

On Apr 19, 5:55 am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <0d94641c-e85f-457f-9746-7fdc7974c...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> frkry...@gmail.com writes:
>
> > When you're at the same speed as the motor vehicles, you should almost
> > always be right in line with the motor vehicles. And "same speed"
> > includes zero speed.
>
> Then that precludes filtering. Might as well just
> drive a fat-assed, greenhouse-gas-farting machine
> and get in line & wait with the other lusers.

I tend to evaluate options by comparing benefits vs. detriments.

Now, as I explained, it's very rare that filtering forward would save
me catching a red light. So what's my benefit to filtering forward?
Getting through the intersection ten seconds earlier? That's not a
significant benefit, and to me, it's not worth the detriment of the
risks involved. I'll keep my place in line, avoid any possibility of
a right hook, and reinforce that I'm operating a legal vehicle. (I
like doing this just to educate motorists.)

For me, there's a lot of joy in bicycling that has nothing at all to
do with the ability to filter forward. So no, I wouldn't say I might
as well be driving a car.

- Frank Krygowski

r15757@aol.com

On Apr 18, 8:44 am, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 18, 1:15 am, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Doug Cimper wrote:
> > > victor....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Apr 16, 2:00 pm, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> And as for right turning traffic, you're correct drivers never look
> > >>> right before going right...
>
> > >> Why should they look there (beyond looking ahead to the right for
> > >> traffic in the crosswalk)?
>
> > >> If one is in the right most lane, it's quite reasonable to expect that
> > >> there is nothing coming up behind on the right when one is making a
> > >> right turn.
>
> > > Because if a pedestrian is stepping off the corner that they are turning
> > > on, what will happen?
> > > ~
>
> > Quite of few pedestrians are hit this way by drivers not looking for
> > them. The situation is bad enough that in some places (such as college
> > campuses), right turns are prohibited at certain intersections (except
> > for buses and emergency vehicles).
>
> > Being "right-hooked" is also a reason why riding at speed on the
> > sidewalk and crossing intersections is a very bad idea, and why "bicycle
> > lanes" on the sidewalk can be death traps.
>
> Ditto for bicycle lanes on the street. Two of last year's cyclist
> fatalities in Portland were standing in bike lanes at red lights.
> Large vehicles at their left crushed them doing right turns on red.

The second of the two was traveling at a high cycling speed just
before the incident.

> When you're at the same speed as the motor vehicles, you should almost
> always be right in line with the motor vehicles. And "same speed"
> includes zero speed.

In the suburbs filtering won't give you much time advantage at all
over other street traffic. In a congested city at rush hour, not
filtering means you're sitting in a traffic jam. You'll still be
downtown when a cyclist using his common sense filtering ability will
be home already. That's a pretty high price to pay to make a
statement. I guess that's why even the hardcore 'vehicular cyclist'
statement-makers suddenly forget all about that when they're in that
situation. What a bunch of hypocrites.

Tom Keats

In article <aca55e21-c101-45dc-a9cf-63e86d07a4d0@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
frkrygow@gmail.com writes:
> On Apr 19, 5:55 am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> In article <0d94641c-e85f-457f-9746-7fdc7974c...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>> frkry...@gmail.com writes:
>>
>> > When you're at the same speed as the motor vehicles, you should almost
>> > always be right in line with the motor vehicles. And "same speed"
>> > includes zero speed.
>>
>> Then that precludes filtering. Might as well just
>> drive a fat-assed, greenhouse-gas-farting machine
>> and get in line & wait with the other lusers.
>
> I tend to evaluate options by comparing benefits vs. detriments.
>
> Now, as I explained, it's very rare that filtering forward would save
> me catching a red light. So what's my benefit to filtering forward?

Not having to miss a traffic light cycle because some
bone-headed driver up ahead is yacking on his cell,
arguing with his S.O., obsessively picking those li'l
lint balls off his sweater, or asleep at the wheel,
or the whole lineup except you is turning left while
you want to go straight through, on an un-lane-lined
but wide and busy street.

In the latter situation, the streets of Vancouver often
have cyclists' push-buttons for the traffic lights. I'm
doing a favour for the drivers to my left by getting up
to the button and pushing it. Sometimes the drivers wave
me up to it and ahead of them, just to get the light to
change in their favour.

> Getting through the intersection ten seconds earlier? That's not a
> significant benefit, and to me, it's not worth the detriment of the
> risks involved. I'll keep my place in line, avoid any possibility of
> a right hook, and reinforce that I'm operating a legal vehicle. (I
> like doing this just to educate motorists.)

I find there are times when it is more advantageous to
be at or near the front of the lineup in terms of
maintaining one's visibility to other street users.

I find myself sizing-up (literally) the vehicles in
all directions of an intersection, and considering
(among other factors) where I'm most visible at a
given situation when I decide where I place myself.
Sometimes that means getting ahead of a cube van or
garbage truck or whatever, sometimes that means hanging
back behind 'em, and sometimes that means getting in
line. It's a dynamic, on-the-spot, on-the-fly judgment
call. The point is: there is absolutely no Standard
Operational Procedure (other than local, jurisdictional
traffic [by]laws) as to where a rider should place her/himself
in a lineup at a controlled intersection. Just take the
best of what you've got at the time while, as you say,
considering the risks involved.

> For me, there's a lot of joy in bicycling that has nothing at all to
> do with the ability to filter forward. So no, I wouldn't say I might
> as well be driving a car.

Canoeists & kayakers can adamantly stick to the shipping
lanes too, if they wanna.

The joy in bicycling is that the world becomes
your oyster, not your inescapable rail line.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats

In article <f22841dd-2a82-4261-b009-91a64d434eba@n14g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
r15757@aol.com writes:

>> When you're at the same speed as the motor vehicles, you should almost
>> always be right in line with the motor vehicles. And "same speed"
>> includes zero speed.
>
> In the suburbs filtering won't give you much time advantage at all
> over other street traffic. In a congested city at rush hour, not
> filtering means you're sitting in a traffic jam. You'll still be
> downtown when a cyclist using his common sense filtering ability will
> be home already. That's a pretty high price to pay to make a
> statement. I guess that's why even the hardcore 'vehicular cyclist'
> statement-makers suddenly forget all about that when they're in that
> situation. What a bunch of hypocrites.

As I see it, there are two types of VC'ers: those who were
actually trained/taught that way by a qualified VC instructor,
and those who've sorta read the book, and created their own
interpretations of its contents.

The former group does pretty good. The latter group just
cherry-picks the parts that suit 'em, while disregarding
the rest of the story.

At any rate, it seems to me that people are looking for
simole, rote rules-of-thumb, and there really aren't any
that are applicable, except for being heads-up and prepared
for contingencies. As much as it would be nice to be able
to do so, one simply cannot sleepwalk through traffic and
get away with it for very long.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Dennis P. Harris

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:49:27 -0700 (PDT) in rec.bicycles.misc,
Marz <marzjennings@gmail.com> wrote:

> And option 3 a nice quiet ride through the smaller roads in the
> neighbourhood, it zigzags a bit, adds about 2 miles to a 9 mile route
> and not so much traffic, BUT I can't ride it. Bunker Hill have banned
> cyclists from the road and I'm left to share the sidewalk/pavement/
> foot path with joggers, dog walkers and of course have to check almost
> every road and drive crossing before moving on, not fun at all.
>
How can they ban bikes? AFAIK in most states cities can't ban
bikes from streets or roads. I'd just do it and fight the
ticket.

Tom Keats

In article <irol045u8d3mhimadl6fjsff8v1t6e5q4m@4ax.com>,
NO_SPAM_TO_dpharris@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris) writes:
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:49:27 -0700 (PDT) in rec.bicycles.misc,
> Marz <marzjennings@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And option 3 a nice quiet ride through the smaller roads in the
>> neighbourhood, it zigzags a bit, adds about 2 miles to a 9 mile route
>> and not so much traffic, BUT I can't ride it. Bunker Hill have banned
>> cyclists from the road and I'm left to share the sidewalk/pavement/
>> foot path with joggers, dog walkers and of course have to check almost
>> every road and drive crossing before moving on, not fun at all.
>>
> How can they ban bikes? AFAIK in most states cities can't ban
> bikes from streets or roads. I'd just do it and fight the
> ticket.

It also helps to check every road and drive crossing
before moving on. I dunno, I just think it's good
to be aware of what's going on around one, and to
deal with it accordingly. Maybe some folks would like
to be able to get around with eyes wide shut, but
I'm not one of 'em.

Gettin' clobbered is no fun at all.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca