Waiting in traffic lines.

Colin McKenzie

J. Chisholm wrote:
> My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
> good ASL.

This is unduly restrictive, though I see your point. In front of the
first vehicle is much safer than beside it, so you MUST be sure you
can get into the driver's eyeline before he can move. If it's a lorry,
I'll look up at the driver and make eye contact. I also won't go in
front if that means I can't see the lights - I improve my safety a bit
more by reacting faster than the driver behind me when the lights change.

> Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
> off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
> at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.

Roundabouts (and unsignalled junctions) are different. You never know
when the first vehicle will move off, so don't try to pass it unless
there's gridlock.

Colin McKenzie

--
No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at
the population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as
walking.
Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.

Adam Lea

"Rob Morley" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2271ad4b1c75fbd798b77b@news.individual.net...
> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
> elbows. :-)

I have been toying with the idea of getting one of those cameras that
attaches to the bike so I can videotape my rides. I could then post the odd
one on here and ask for some advice..

Roger Merriman

Marz <marzjennings@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 17, 4:05 am, "J. Chisholm" <jc...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Simon Mason wrote:
> >
> > > "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >news:cb3e1daa-75a2-4fe4-a622-8d8645c9918f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > >> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> > >> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> > >> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> > >> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> > >> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
> > >> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
> >
> > >> laters,
> >
> > >> Marz
> >
> > > 9/10 I will ride to the head of the queue/line or past slow moving
> > > vehicles. Sometimes if there is a bus or lorry in front and there is a
> > > chance the lights will change before I can get past then it's not worth
> > > the risk. Keeping in the queue just negates the advantage of being on a
> > > bike.
> >
> > My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
> > good ASL.
> > Take primary position behind first vehicle. The driver of the first
> > vehicle will be looking at the lights to see when they change, and even
> > if you think he should see you he may not. In addition an increasing
> > proportion of drivers don't realise that 'indicators' should be used in
> > advance of a manoeuvre to indicate intentions rather that show "I'm now
> > turning left", as if it isn't bloddy obvious by that stage. At a
> > junction I use almost daily I recon only half vehicles that are first in
> > Q indicate in advance that they're turn left, with the other half either
> > not indicating at all or only indicating as they move off to make the turn.
> >
> > Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
> > off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
> > at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.
> >
> > Jim Chisholm- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Never seen an ASL in Houston and I doubt I ever will, but I agree with
> not getting ahead of the first car. He's just watching for the light
> to go green and has assumed that nothing is going to pull in front of
> him after he's stopped for the red light.

not sure i really see the problem, as such very few cars etc move off
from the lights with any great speed, i certinaly don't have much
problems leaving the traffic behind at least across the junction.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

Zoot Katz

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:01:47 +0100, "Adam Lea" <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>"Rob Morley" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.2271ad4b1c75fbd798b77b@news.individual.net...
>> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
>> elbows. :-)
>
>I have been toying with the idea of getting one of those cameras that
>attaches to the bike so I can videotape my rides. I could then post the odd
>one on here and ask for some advice..
>
Except these aren't binary groups. You'd have to do in on Youtube or
something and link it here.
--
zk

Martin Dann

Adam Lea wrote:
> "Rob Morley" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.2271ad4b1c75fbd798b77b@news.individual.net...
>> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
>> elbows. :-)
>
> I have been toying with the idea of getting one of those cameras that
> attaches to the bike so I can videotape my rides. I could then post the odd
> one on here and ask for some advice..


I think my cycling improved dramatically in the weeks after I got mine,
and started reviewing my cycling. Watching your cycling in your own home
allows me to think about what happened, without having to watch the road
whilst cycling.
Now if I am cut up, I think "I got that on camera, I will have a look
when I get home", rather than trying to work out what happened then and
there.

Adam Lea

"Zoot Katz" <zootkatz@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:fhff04dfl4p87inma98436ni4b4tgm9ncg@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:01:47 +0100, "Adam Lea" <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Rob Morley" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>news:MPG.2271ad4b1c75fbd798b77b@news.individual.net...
>>> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
>>> elbows. :-)
>>
>>I have been toying with the idea of getting one of those cameras that
>>attaches to the bike so I can videotape my rides. I could then post the
>>odd
>>one on here and ask for some advice..
>>
> Except these aren't binary groups. You'd have to do in on Youtube or
> something and link it here.
> --

Yes that is what I meant.

Martin Dann

Adam Lea wrote:
> "Zoot Katz" <zootkatz@operamail.com> wrote in message

>> Except these aren't binary groups. You'd have to do in on Youtube or
>> something and link it here.
>> --
>
> Yes that is what I meant.

Got this one on the way home from work this evening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42KbrxAFnY8

Zoot Katz

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:58:28 GMT, Martin Dann
<martin.dann@virgin.net> wrote:

>
>Adam Lea wrote:
>> "Rob Morley" <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.2271ad4b1c75fbd798b77b@news.individual.net...
>>> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
>>> elbows. :-)
>>
>> I have been toying with the idea of getting one of those cameras that
>> attaches to the bike so I can videotape my rides. I could then post the odd
>> one on here and ask for some advice..
>
>
>I think my cycling improved dramatically in the weeks after I got mine,
>and started reviewing my cycling. Watching your cycling in your own home
>allows me to think about what happened, without having to watch the road
>whilst cycling.
>Now if I am cut up, I think "I got that on camera, I will have a look
>when I get home", rather than trying to work out what happened then and
>there.

That sounds like a good learning tool.
I've carried a voice actuated recorder a few times just for laughs.
Most of it had to be beeped out and the singing parts were worse.
--
zk

Tom Sherman

Rob Morley wrote:
> In article <66pk9pF2l6kugU1@mid.individual.net>, Adam Lea
> asrl07@yahoo.co.uk says...
>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:fu6fhl$50u$2@registered.motzarella.org...
>>> Adam Lea wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>> I often wonder what to do in Central London where I can't pass on the
>>>> left because it is too dangerous, can't pass on the right because I would
>>>> be in the path of oncoming traffic, can't filter between lanes because
>>>> the gap is too small, yet I often hear of people managing 12+mph averages
>>>> in this area. I wonder how.
>>>>
>>> See <http://digave.com/videos/london06-digave_com.mpg> for advice on
>>> riding in London.
>>>
>> Ah so that's the answer - use the "full width" of the road.
>>
> No, just any bit you can squeeze through by tucking in your knees and
> elbows. :-)
> Seriously though, what a bunch of twats.

Watching said video leaves me torn between admiration for the cyclists'
skill and thinking they would be earning their just desserts if run over
by a lorry/truck or bus.

By the way, are those motorized rickshaws in the video?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman

Roger Merriman wrote:
> Marz <marzjennings@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 17, 4:05 am, "J. Chisholm" <jc...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Simon Mason wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:cb3e1daa-75a2-4fe4-a622-8d8645c9918f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
>>>>> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
>>>>> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
>>>>> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
>>>>> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
>>>>> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>>>>> laters,
>>>>> Marz
>>>> 9/10 I will ride to the head of the queue/line or past slow moving
>>>> vehicles. Sometimes if there is a bus or lorry in front and there is a
>>>> chance the lights will change before I can get past then it's not worth
>>>> the risk. Keeping in the queue just negates the advantage of being on a
>>>> bike.
>>> My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
>>> good ASL.
>>> Take primary position behind first vehicle. The driver of the first
>>> vehicle will be looking at the lights to see when they change, and even
>>> if you think he should see you he may not. In addition an increasing
>>> proportion of drivers don't realise that 'indicators' should be used in
>>> advance of a manoeuvre to indicate intentions rather that show "I'm now
>>> turning left", as if it isn't bloddy obvious by that stage. At a
>>> junction I use almost daily I recon only half vehicles that are first in
>>> Q indicate in advance that they're turn left, with the other half either
>>> not indicating at all or only indicating as they move off to make the turn.
>>>
>>> Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
>>> off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
>>> at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.
>>>
>>> Jim Chisholm- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> Never seen an ASL in Houston and I doubt I ever will, but I agree with
>> not getting ahead of the first car. He's just watching for the light
>> to go green and has assumed that nothing is going to pull in front of
>> him after he's stopped for the red light.
>
> not sure i really see the problem, as such very few cars etc move off
> from the lights with any great speed, i certinaly don't have much
> problems leaving the traffic behind at least across the junction.
>
I usually watch the cross lights and have the clutch engagement started
a fraction of second before the light turns green.

In the 'hood, people pull up in the right turn only lane, then go
straight on red if there is no motorized cross traffic. The "bicycle"
and parking lanes are used as a passing lane.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Keats

In article <56Wdnae0sJQ-LprVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@plusnet>,
Colin McKenzie <news@proof-read.co.uk> writes:
> J. Chisholm wrote:
>> My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
>> good ASL.
>
> This is unduly restrictive, though I see your point. In front of the
> first vehicle is much safer than beside it, so you MUST be sure you
> can get into the driver's eyeline before he can move. If it's a lorry,
> I'll look up at the driver and make eye contact. I also won't go in
> front if that means I can't see the lights - I improve my safety a bit
> more by reacting faster than the driver behind me when the lights change.

Here's a treatment of this very topic, from a North American POV:
http://bicyclesafe.com
(Scroll down to "Red Light of Death)


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Marz

On Apr 17, 4:16 pm, N...@wodger.demon.co.uk (Roger Merriman) wrote:
> Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 17, 4:05 am, "J. Chisholm" <jc...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > Simon Mason wrote:
>
> > > > "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:cb3e1daa-75a2-4fe4-a622-8d8645c9918f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > > >> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> > > >> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> > > >> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> > > >> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> > > >> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
> > > >> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
> > > >> laters,
>
> > > >> Marz
>
> > > > 9/10 I will ride to the head of the queue/line or past slow moving
> > > > vehicles. Sometimes if there is a bus or lorry in front and there is a
> > > > chance the lights will change before I can get past then it's not worth
> > > > the risk. Keeping in the queue just negates the advantage of being on a
> > > > bike.
>
> > > My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
> > > good ASL.
> > > Take primary position behind first vehicle. The driver of the first
> > > vehicle will be looking at the lights to see when they change, and even
> > > if you think he should see you he may not. In addition an increasing
> > > proportion of drivers don't realise that 'indicators' should be used in
> > > advance of a manoeuvre to indicate intentions rather that show "I'm now
> > > turning left", as if it isn't bloddy obvious by that stage. At a
> > > junction I use almost daily I recon only half vehicles that are first in
> > > Q indicate in advance that they're turn left, with the other half either
> > > not indicating at all or only indicating as they move off to make the turn.
>
> > > Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
> > > off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
> > > at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.
>
> > > Jim Chisholm- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Never seen an ASL in Houston and I doubt I ever will, but I agree with
> > not getting ahead of the first car. He's just watching for the light
> > to go green and has assumed that nothing is going to pull in front of
> > him after he's stopped for the red light.
>
> not sure i really see the problem, as such very few cars etc move off
> from the lights with any great speed, i certinaly don't have much
> problems leaving the traffic behind at least across the junction.
>
> roger
> --www.rogermerriman.com

Not stopping ahead of the lead car is something I've done to moderate
my cycling here in Texas. Back in the UK, I would have almost always
got in front and be gone and away once the lights turned green. Here,
because folks can turn right on red, drivers very often wait half
turned across the junction (blocking any chance of filtering on the
right) waiting for a gap in on coming traffic more than waiting for
the light to turn green. Plus the last person you want to piss off is
a Texan driver, that gun rack in the back of the pick up is there for
a reason and I've already had one gun drawn on me. One of the more fun
and witty bumper stickers is, 'keep honking buddy, I'm reloadin'.
http://www.lakecitygraphics.com/ima...cs/Honking1.jpg



laters.

Marz

Marz

On Apr 17, 4:16 pm, N...@wodger.demon.co.uk (Roger Merriman) wrote:
> Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 17, 4:05 am, "J. Chisholm" <jc...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > Simon Mason wrote:
>
> > > > "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:cb3e1daa-75a2-4fe4-a622-8d8645c9918f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > > >> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> > > >> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> > > >> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> > > >> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> > > >> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is, do
> > > >> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
> > > >> laters,
>
> > > >> Marz
>
> > > > 9/10 I will ride to the head of the queue/line or past slow moving
> > > > vehicles. Sometimes if there is a bus or lorry in front and there is a
> > > > chance the lights will change before I can get past then it's not worth
> > > > the risk. Keeping in the queue just negates the advantage of being on a
> > > > bike.
>
> > > My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
> > > good ASL.
> > > Take primary position behind first vehicle. The driver of the first
> > > vehicle will be looking at the lights to see when they change, and even
> > > if you think he should see you he may not. In addition an increasing
> > > proportion of drivers don't realise that 'indicators' should be used in
> > > advance of a manoeuvre to indicate intentions rather that show "I'm now
> > > turning left", as if it isn't bloddy obvious by that stage. At a
> > > junction I use almost daily I recon only half vehicles that are first in
> > > Q indicate in advance that they're turn left, with the other half either
> > > not indicating at all or only indicating as they move off to make the turn.
>
> > > Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
> > > off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
> > > at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.
>
> > > Jim Chisholm- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Never seen an ASL in Houston and I doubt I ever will, but I agree with
> > not getting ahead of the first car. He's just watching for the light
> > to go green and has assumed that nothing is going to pull in front of
> > him after he's stopped for the red light.
>
> not sure i really see the problem, as such very few cars etc move off
> from the lights with any great speed, i certinaly don't have much
> problems leaving the traffic behind at least across the junction.
>
> roger
> --www.rogermerriman.com

Not always getting ahead of the lead car is something I've done to
moderate my cycling here in Texas. Back in the UK I'd almost always
get to the head of the queue and be gone and away once the light
changed. Because drivers are allowed to turn right on red, they'll
very often stop at the light across the whole lane waiting, not for
the light to change, but for a gap in on coming traffic.And so their
attention is never on what may be filtering on their right, bikes on
the road or peds on the pavement/sidewalk. Plus the last person you
want to piss off is a Texan driver, that gun rack in the back of that
pick up is there for a reason and I've already had one gun pointed at
me. One of the funnier and witty bumper stickers says, " Keep honking
buddy, I'm reloadin". http://www.lakecitygraphics.com/ima...cs/Honking1.jpg




laters,

Marz

Marz

On Apr 17, 4:16*pm, N...@wodger.demon.co.uk (Roger Merriman) wrote:
> Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 17, 4:05 am, "J. Chisholm" <jc...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > Simon Mason wrote:
>
> > > > "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:cb3e1daa-75a2-4fe4-a622-8d8645c9918f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com....
> > > >> When driving to work the other day (sorry, yes driving, cycling is not
> > > >> really an option right now) I noticed the one cycling commuter ( a
> > > >> very rare sight in Houston) and was surprised to see him wait in line
> > > >> with traffic at the lights. For me, one of the reasons I did ride to
> > > >> work is to avoid getting stuck in traffic lines and my question is,do
> > > >> other folks wait in line or do you ride through stationary traffic?
>
> > > >> laters,
>
> > > >> Marz
>
> > > > 9/10 I will ride to the head of the queue/line or past slow moving
> > > > vehicles. Sometimes if there is a bus or lorry in front and there isa
> > > > chance the lights will change before I can get past then it's not worth
> > > > the risk. Keeping in the queue just negates the advantage of being on a
> > > > bike.
>
> > > My advice is NEVER go in front of the first vehicle unless there is a
> > > good ASL.
> > > Take primary position behind first vehicle. The driver of the first
> > > vehicle will be looking at the lights to see when they change, and even
> > > if you think he should see you he may not. In addition an increasing
> > > proportion of drivers don't realise that 'indicators' should be used in
> > > advance of a manoeuvre to indicate intentions rather that show "I'm now
> > > turning left", as if it isn't bloddy obvious by that stage. At a
> > > junction I use almost daily I recon only half vehicles that are first in
> > > Q indicate in advance that they're turn left, with the other half either
> > > not indicating at all or only indicating as they move off to make the turn.
>
> > > Similar applies to R'abouts, don't undertake first vehicle in Q but move
> > > off behind him. In Cambridge a cyclist was killed when an HGV moved off
> > > at a R'about when cyclist in front didn't.
>
> > > Jim Chisholm- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Never seen an ASL in Houston and I doubt I ever will, but I agree with
> > not getting ahead of the first car. He's just watching for the light
> > to go green and has assumed that nothing is going to pull in front of
> > him after he's stopped for the red light.
>
> not sure i really see the problem, as such very few cars etc move off
> from the lights with any great speed, i certinaly don't have much
> problems leaving the traffic behind at least across the junction.
>
> roger
> --www.rogermerriman.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not always getting ahead of the lead car is something I've done to
moderate my cycling here in Texas. Back in the UK, I'd almost always
get to the head of the queue and be gone and away once the light
changed. Here, because drivers are allowed to turn right on red,
they'll very often stop at the light across the whole lane waiting,
not for the light to change, but for a gap in on coming traffic.And so
their attention is never on what may be filtering on their right,
bikes on the road or peds on the pavement/sidewalk. Plus the last
person you want to piss off is a Texan driver, that gun rack in the
back of that pick up is there for a reason and I've already had one
gun pointed at me. One of the funnier and witty bumper stickers says,
" Keep honking buddy, I'm reloadin". http://www.lakecitygraphics.com/ima...cs/Honking1.jpg




laters,