How much can I increase my FTP?

BullGod

Yep - anything under 4 degrees C, or under 12 degrees with rain, and I pretty much accept that I will feel lousy for a few days afterwards. Rain here in Holland can be a bastard even in "summer".

Or come back from a 4hr race totally shagged to find your housemate has flu and has coughed and sneezed all over the place.

I can't wait til summer.

Sillyoldtwit

Sorry Andy, but this statement begs a lot of questions.

1) What does 'on average' mean? Does it mean that there are exceptions?

2) What does a large volume mean?

3) What does 'moderately intense training' mean'?

4) What does 'much smaller volume' mean?

5) What does 'very intense' mean?

To my way of thinking, the meanings are very wide and one is likely to apply their own interpretation to each phrase.

I think Rapdaddyo would have said, whereas training at high intensity to one rider is endurable time after time (and dare I say actually enjoyable) to another it is pure purgatory. For the last 2 years plus since joining these forums, I would say I have trained (mostly for training sake) leaning towards shorter high intensity workouts. My improvement has been beyond my wildest dreams and is still continuing (approaching 66 years old). From 130W FTP to 315/320W. I will go on record now, as saying that before I race around Lake Biwa (140Km) in October my FTP will be closer to 340Watts! From what you and others are saying, I could possibly be way ahead of where I'm at present if I'd worked out at lower intensity - correct? Tyson

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BullGod

Tyson,

It isn't working out ONLY at a lower intensity - the plan that most top cyclists follow is one of building a huge engine through massive amounts of lower intensity endurance training in the off season - followed by a combination of quality intervals, hard racing and rest, to fine tune the engine and add the turbo, if you like. This engine gets run down completely, then rested, recharged and exhausted all over again over the years to create an efficient and powerful machine.

Ask any pro how they train and they'll tell you they ride hours every day, a few sprints once in a while to avoid losing explosive power, rest before races and use "B" races as training, then push themselves to the max in the "A" races. Racing at top level inflicts such a deep and powerful exertion on riders that through regular competition and appropriate resting they actually stress their bodies much harder than through interval training. This gives them those massive FTP numbers.

There are very few pros doing 2 x 20's, but these guys have the highest FTP.

I'm not knocking power training - If I worked full time or had family commitments it's what I'd do - But I am sure that riding fast needs a big engine - and you get a big engine from riding lots, and racing.

rmur17

http://cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/levels.asp

have a read through the training power level descriptions again. Threshold training - though feeling hard to very hard at the 'end' of the intervals or efforts is really in the moderate to somewhat strong category or around 4 on the Borg 10-pt scale.

I can't speak for Dr. Coggan but, simply taking the baseline training level descriptions, I would rate very intense as L5 and above and moderately intense L2-3 right up to L4.

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rmur

Urkiola2

I agree with you as well. I believe that the concepts you have developed are just brilliant!. I wish that 90% of Pro Tour level cyclists could know how to use a power meter...or at least a heart rate monitor!..Seriously, there are Pro Tour riders (fortunately less and less) who still have trouble turning a computer on... !. Anglosaxon cyclists due to their innovated culture are way more advanced than the old Europe...Most of the posters in this forum (if not all) know a lot more about cycling science than most of Pro Tour riders...

Anyways, about power training, I know I am unfair with it many times...I have just seen that many people tend to get overtrained because they don ´t know how to use info properly. I believe that the general public needs a bit more knowledge before using a power meter and terms like FTP; "sweet spot"...etc. But again, that is my opinion.



Cheers

MIHECH

This is exactly what I wanted to write. Pros of course have a different regimen, because they have what most of us dont have-TIME (job, study, etc.). With racing the pros in my opinion do much much more of intense work than we can imagine, and as BullGod said the combination of the big aerobic engine+intense racing gives them the huge numbers. So maybe the "base" period is not just for rebuilding the aerobic engine, but also to get a bit more "rest" (no so stressful rides), before the whole "torture" starts all over again.

acoggan

Thank you! However, I don't think the idea of a 'sweet spot' is something that I can claim to have originated...heck, I'm not even the one who gave it that name (Frank Overton gets credit for that). All I can really claim to have done in this arena is to express a commonly-held belief* in an easy-to-understand graphic form. Sometimes, though, that's all it takes to turn the lightbulb on...

*Think Lydiard, East Germany's swimmers, etc.

acoggan

Let me try putting it this way: given unlimited time to train (and to recover from training), I think that most people would improve the greatest by training as hard as they can for 15 h/wk (on average) than by training as hard as they can for 7.5 h/wk (where the average intensity would obviously be higher) or by training as hard as they can for 22.5 h/wk (where the average intensity would obviously be lower).

daveryanwyoming

This statement reminds me that people tend to associate a training philosophy with the metrics used to gauge that training. The term "Power Training" doesn't imply any particular approach to training, you can ride with a PM, analyze the data, pace your efforts with the PM and still adhere to an LSD style approach, a HIT approach or an SST/Lydiard based approach. They're all "power training" but people tend to lump all athletes training with power into one camp or another.

IMHO the vast majority of the members of this site will receive the greatest benefit training with a SST/Lydiard approach but among other things that assumes they have work, school and or family obligations and that they don't make their living riding a bicycle. It also assumes they're not going to compete in several events weekly for five or six straight months or ride grand tours. IOW, Bullgod is an exception to the rule around here, a full time elite rider competing at the national level. I don't know or deal with many folks in his position, I'm sure it's just the opposite for you working with full time professional cyclists. I suspect that has as much as anything to do with our chosen training philosophies and what we think works.

Anyway, I'm sure you get the point but for others following this thread, "power training" doesn't necessarily imply anything. It's what you do with that PM data and what training philosophy you've adopted that makes the difference.

-Dave

Ade Merckx

I'm happy to except what you say; but excessive amounts of any training are surely not a good idea especially if physiologically you're not up to it.

Someone like myself with only 8 hours on average training time can definitly get away with majority L4 workouts. However if I had 16-20 hours to train in I'd definitly do things differently (more sweetspotish stuff). I just think its too easy to make sweeping statements such as L4/L5 stuff made me overtrained/unwell/sore etc without giving context or background.

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Urkiola2

Good point. I would also add to train as hard as you can in a single session for 7h...which in a way would be a FTP for 7h....which will elicit an intensity much lower than 2x20min FTP.

Urkiola2

What I mean by "power training" is to build your training around your power. That is to me, for example to set up training zones in watts. Analyzing watts, HR, average Speed..etc is fantastic for your training and feedback on top of fun, but it is getting data from your training and that does not represent you are building your training around W. I think you know what I mean.

On the other hand I have also worked with what we call here in Europe "cyclotourists" who work full time and train whenever they can. Regardless of the limited amoung of time, I see that cyclists who combine "endurance" rides and "intense"/"intervals" rides do better not only in Races or "Gran Fondos" but also in the lab in terms of physiological parameters compared to those who pretty much only do "intensity" training. On top of that the index of ovetraining is higher in the latter group.

Once I went to the US and worked with a group of recreational riders (17) who work full time and train and compete. Due to lack of time they trained lots of intensity and I was amazed of how overtrained they were. Their Hgb and Hct leves were on the floor...in 15 of the 17 cyclists. I gave them a few tips and changed a few things in their trainings and 3 months later when I returned only 5 still had with low Hct and Hgb levels. On top of that physiologically they were superior. They could do more watts and building significant less blood lactate.

What I mean by these empirical observations over the years is that whatever works with the pros, it also works with everyone else. To a lesser extent than the pros but it still works.

Cheers

daveryanwyoming

That's where our observations differ. I've known a lot of amateur racers over the years that have tried to emulate the pros in terms of big mileage - low intensity base training. Heck I was coached that way for years. It just didn't work around a full time work schedule. I got real good at going real slow for lots of hours. No problem completing 200km rides just big problems staying with the fast guys in races. Working Lydiard style SST as base has changed that dramatically, yep that's totally anectdotal but it'll take a lot ot convince me that what's best for full time pros is best for folks with full time jobs.

-Dave

Sillyoldtwit

Having read all the arguments and counter arguments, I think I shall just plug on with the way I've trained to-date. In short, it suits me but might not suit others and I'm happy with the results.
Geez, at my age what have I got to worry about? I guarantee on June 8 in the mountains of Fukui Prefecture, there will be at least 200 of the 300 riders behind me and 99% of them a lot younger. Tyson

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