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Landis' last gasp

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Old 01-07.-2008, 03:31 AM   #151
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolfrae
I reckon the truth will die with Landis.
No truth is truth, admissions don't change that.
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Old 01-07.-2008, 03:36 AM   #152
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

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Originally Posted by thoughtforfood
No truth is truth, admissions don't change that.
The fact here is that he took testosterone. But he couldn't have won the stage by taking testosterone. So, the question is what did he actually take, and how did his testosterone go so out of whack to trigger a positive with the T/E method. That is the "truth" referred here (I think).
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Old 01-07.-2008, 03:47 AM   #153
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

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Originally Posted by fscyclist
Landis wasn't going to win, that was clear from the onset.

That may be easier to say in hindsight... but if I remember the feeling before the arbitration decision... it wasn't 100% clear what the outcome was going to be.

Not disagreeing with the decision though...
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Old 01-07.-2008, 03:50 AM   #154
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

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Originally Posted by TheDarkLord
The fact here is that he took testosterone. But he couldn't have won the stage by taking testosterone. So, the question is what did he actually take, and how did his testosterone go so out of whack to trigger a positive with the T/E method. That is the "truth" referred here (I think).

...you appear to be correct sir, my assholiness is on parade today. I flamed a guy over at DP because I read his post wrong....maybe I should lay off of the steroids and testosterone....
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Old 01-07.-2008, 04:25 AM   #155
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

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Originally Posted by Crankyfeet
That may be easier to say in hindsight... but if I remember the feeling before the arbitration decision... it wasn't 100% clear what the outcome was going to be.

Not disagreeing with the decision though...
I think arguing against the IRMS test is extremely difficult. His arguments were not science based - they were procedure based, which was really his only shot. I suppose he had a chance (based upon the Landaluze finding), but in an aribitration proceeding like this it was unlikely to succeed. If it were a criminal case in the US he may well have beaten the charge (doesn't mean he is innocent), but the evidentiary rules are much greater (for good reason) in those cases. When they tested his other B samples with IRMS and found them positive as well, it was game over.
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Old 01-07.-2008, 04:48 AM   #156
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

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Originally Posted by fscyclist
When they tested his other B samples with IRMS and found them positive as well, it was game over.

I can stomach people thinking the system isn't fair, etc. but the one's who think he is actually innocent of doping are delusional.

Landis probably nearly shit himself when they said they were going to go back and test the other samples.

He really does end up looking like a complete idiot in this whole thing. He should have just accepted his medicine like a big boy and taken his deserved lumps as one of the ones who played the game and got caught out.

Now those lawyers have all his money and he looks like a complete douche because of what he tried to do to Lemond. Only the ignorant and hard-core ostriches think he didn't dope.
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Old 01-07.-2008, 04:58 AM   #157
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

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Originally Posted by Wayne666
He really does end up looking like a complete idiot in this whole thing. He should have just accepted his medicine like a big boy and taken his deserved lumps as one of the ones who played the game and got caught out.
He may have accepted his medicine if he didn't have the yellow jersey at stake.
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Old 01-07.-2008, 05:37 AM   #158
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

Landis exercised his options under the World Anti-Doping Code and appealed that decision to CAS. The CAS panel — composed of New Zealander David Williams, French attorney Jan Paulsson and New York lawyer David Rivkin — heard Landis’s appeal in New York in March of this year and the resulting 58-page decision was issued Monday.
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Its a Kiwi-Yank-French conspiracy ! There all in on it I tell ya !
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Old 01-07.-2008, 05:51 AM   #159
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

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Originally Posted by Wayne666
I can stomach people thinking the system isn't fair, etc. but the one's who think he is actually innocent of doping are delusional.

Landis probably nearly shit himself when they said they were going to go back and test the other samples.

He really does end up looking like a complete idiot in this whole thing. He should have just accepted his medicine like a big boy and taken his deserved lumps as one of the ones who played the game and got caught out.

Now those lawyers have all his money and he looks like a complete douche because of what he tried to do to Lemond. Only the ignorant and hard-core ostriches think he didn't dope.
The irony is that the asthmatic Pereiro is now the Tour Champion. Truly one of the most undeserving and unnotable Tour winners of recent memory.
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Old 01-07.-2008, 06:05 AM   #160
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

Quote:
Originally Posted by fscyclist
The irony is that the asthmatic Pereiro is now the Tour Champion. Truly one of the most undeserving and unnotable Tour winners of recent memory.
Undeserving? He was the highest placed rider who didn't fail a drug test, and he earned his spot. Don't see what's undeserving about that.

Sure he got lucky with that long break, but so what? That's racing, and kudos to him for having the balls to go for it when he could've just given up and rode along in the peloton - wasn't his fault that no one chased.

And how is it really any different than Landis' St 17, anyway? Landis gained time back because no one chased, so if he - Landis - did end up with the win, would you say that was equally undeserving?

And kudos to Pereiro for riding his guts out afterwards to hold on to second, which eventually gave him the win.

Although having said that, I don't think Pereiro was any cleaner than Landis, mind you
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Old 01-07.-2008, 06:06 AM   #161
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

Quote:
Originally Posted by fscyclist
The irony is that the asthmatic Pereiro is now the Tour Champion. Truly one of the most undeserving and unnotable Tour winners of recent memory.


what more undeserving than Landis ?
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Old 01-07.-2008, 06:25 AM   #162
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Default I've done a little mass spec work in my time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboytrash
I thought this summed proceedings well:

In the end, the panel saved its harshest criticism for Landis, who it said essentially tried to muddle the evidence and embarrass the French lab, and continued on that course even after the evidence was shown not to exist.
"Appelant's experts crossed the line, acting for the most part as advocates for the Appelant's cause, and not as scientists objectively assisting the Panel in the search for truth," the decision read.
Obviously I don't know if Floyd is a sinner or a saint, but I did listen to the live webcast of the part of the hearing where they were talking about the operation of the lab.

I've done mass spec work. I did my work on Nuclide (model 12-90 ???) systems. They're different machines but the basics are the same and the theory of operation is easy to understand.

What the lab admits to having done was spectacularly wrong. Their defense of why it was OK to have left the lifting ring on the machine was pathetic.

I don't know what the data would have shown if they had operated the machine properly, but their results are worthless.

It's ridiculous that they formatted the hard drives on the machine. That's a really bad sign. It gives the impression that they know that they totally flubbed the measurements.

I found the opinions of the Dr. who specialized in treating patients with testosterone deficiencies interesting. He said that there was no know process by which the testosterone could be metabolized out of the blood within one day. So where did it go?

The lab says, he's clean on day one, he's dirty on day two, and he's clean on day three.

That data doesn't make any sense at all.

Again, I don't know if cheated or not but the data stinks.
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Old 01-07.-2008, 06:34 AM   #163
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Default Re: I've done a little mass spec work in my time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpriatko
Obviously I don't know if Floyd is a sinner or a saint, but I did listen to the live webcast of the part of the hearing where they were talking about the operation of the lab.

I've done mass spec work. I did my work on Nuclide (model 12-90 ???) systems. They're different machines but the basics are the same and the theory of operation is easy to understand.

What the lab admits to having done was spectacularly wrong. Their defense of why it was OK to have left the lifting ring on the machine was pathetic.

I don't know what the data would have shown if they had operated the machine properly, but their results are worthless.

It's ridiculous that they formatted the hard drives on the machine. That's a really bad sign. It gives the impression that they know that they totally flubbed the measurements.

I found the opinions of the Dr. who specialized in treating patients with testosterone deficiencies interesting. He said that there was no know process by which the testosterone could be metabolized out of the blood within one day. So where did it go?

The lab says, he's clean on day one, he's dirty on day two, and he's clean on day three.

That data doesn't make any sense at all.

Again, I don't know if cheated or not but the data stinks.

He cheated, there, now you know.
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Old 01-07.-2008, 06:50 AM   #164
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafer
Undeserving? He was the highest placed rider who didn't fail a drug test, and he earned his spot. Don't see what's undeserving about that.

Sure he got lucky with that long break, but so what? That's racing, and kudos to him for having the balls to go for it when he could've just given up and rode along in the peloton - wasn't his fault that no one chased.

And how is it really any different than Landis' St 17, anyway? Landis gained time back because no one chased, so if he - Landis - did end up with the win, would you say that was equally undeserving?

And kudos to Pereiro for riding his guts out afterwards to hold on to second, which eventually gave him the win.

Although having said that, I don't think Pereiro was any cleaner than Landis, mind you
You said it in your post - he got lucky.

Remember, he got his time on a relatively benign stage (a stage where McEwen brought in the peloton in a bunch sprint) where his breakaway group put on 30 minutes over the peloton. He went on to lose almost all that time in the following days. Hardly the mark of a Tour champion.

He 'won' a Tour where the favorites (Basso, Ulrich, Vino, etc..) were not allowed to start.

He did test postive for a banned substance, Salbutamol (you must have missed my asthma reference) but was granted a retroactive TUE - sound familiar?! I find it interesting that people with such profound disabilities are able to win the most elite of all sporting events.

Landis' breakaway was much different. First, it was a solo break. Second, he was marked. Everyone let him go thinking he would blow up, but he didn't - really an incredible feat. Pereiro was not marked at the time and was let go in a group breakaway because no one saw him as a credible threat. There is a huge difference between the two breaks, regardless of your (or my) feeling for Landis.

Do I think Landis is more deserving? Well...I think so. Look at the podium or even the top 10 and please tell me which of those guys wasn't doping. Does Jan 'deserve' a Jersey for 1996 now that Riis admitted doping? Is Ulrich more 'deserving'? I don't think so.

Let me make it clear, I'm not arguing that Landis should get to keep the Jersey or that Pereiro shouldn't get it. Pereiro SHOULD get the yellow jersey - the rules say so, and yes, the rules are important. I just can't say he's more 'deserving' in the absolutely corrupted system these guys raced under.

I don't fault Landis so much for the doping violation in a system where nearly everyone doped, but for the way he conducted himself once he was caught.

Really, what it comes down to is that the 2006 Tour was one of the absolute worst ever, certainly the worst I've seen in the past 20 years. The major players were absent and you were left watching the second stringers fight it out. It was 'bush league' cycling.

So...unnotable, certainly. Undeserving, maybe a little harsh, but certainly debatable.
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Old 01-07.-2008, 10:50 AM   #165
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Default Re: Landis' last gasp

I still like FLandis. Yeah, I'm a hypocrite. I like his attitude. With exploits like trading a yellow jersy for a beer on the way down from Alpe d'Huez, he would have been hugely popular in the U.S. among cycling fans. He was a much warmer and wilder personality than the cold, arrogant meanness of Armstrong.

He played this wrong. Hamilton should have served as an example that the UCI was willing to scapegoat select individuals and that the consequences of fighting it out to the end and losing would be severe. With the tip offs that Postal was getting about random testing, he must have known that the UCI was corrupt.

His wiki defense backfired. He would have been better served by making his initial denials and then letting the process go forward quietly. If his defense team could find a serious error then he would eventually skate on the charge, but if not he would not have been left backed into a corner as he is now.

If he really wanted to go public, an attack on the anti-doping apparatus was a bad target. He should have targeted the systemic nature of doping in pro cycling. Saying that he was not doing anything his rivals were not doing is more believable than claiming he didn't do it, especially since most of his rivals had been prevented from racing the Tour a month earlier. It is also a more sympathetic position.

FLandis must be angry as hell. Aside from seeing the UCI spend money to defend Armstrong's dope use, they are now assuring the public that Contador is clean. Pereiro was on the same doping program as Landis the year before, yet he gets the title that was rightfully won by FLandis. Judging by what happened to Hamilton, the UCI will black list Landis in europe.

The starting date of his suspension is bullshit. He gave up several hundred thousand dollars by not collecting post-Tour race appearance fees. There appears to be no clear rules on when a suspension starts. It does not seem to be too hard to make a simple rule that it starts after the last race you did after testing positive. He is lucky that CAS dismissed the idea of starting the suspension after the 2007 PB100.

Maybe I'm just vindictive, but if I were FLandis and the UCI was doing whatever it could to prevent me from working the last few years of my career, I'd blow the lid off of Postal, Phonak, and everyone else I knew anything about. He's already probably near bankruptcy. He is judgement proof if he gets sued for libel. It is also the only way to salvation.
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