Page 2 - How far on 8 hours a week?

13-03.-2008, 03:41 AM

#16

frenchyge

Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Kansas City, USA

Posts: 3,574

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Because the "accepted wisdom" is wrong. That is, there is very little, if any, connection between the level at which one competes and the training load required to maximize performance.

I don't think that second statement necessarily means that the "accepted wisdom" is wrong, with the caveat being that the level that one competes probably does have a bearing one how much effort the competitor is willing/able to (or must) put toward maximizing performance.

If we assume that athletes of all levels can sustain and benefit from a weekly training load of ~1000 TSS/wk, then that's still 14 hrs per week with an average IF of .85 (ie, all SST all the time), which would still track with "accepted wisdom" from the OP's point of view.

13-03.-2008, 03:50 AM	#17
Felt_Rider Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,233	Re: How far on 8 hours a week? My training time is determined by the cost of Assos Chamois Creme .........sorry for butting in a serious thread with humor. __________________ My Blog

13-03.-2008, 03:52 AM

#18

Steve_B

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 490

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

I am an elite cat rider, and i am constantly in a cycle of gradual training overload, followed by rest. I try and get total weekly durations over a 4 week block of, for example, 18, 20, 26 then 8 - so you take yourself to being totally shagged, and then recover - then repeat.

Previosu years I have had to work full time, and have trained lower duration / higher intensity - this year was my first experiment with a massive LSD base over the winter. Apart from a handful of training races, and a classic in Belgium I have only done one L4 training session and one SST since end of season 2007. No L5 yet and not a single sprint in training.

Sure - the first races were strange, but I am feeling / noticing that a massive base of around 320 hours of L2 has given me the engine to rapidly improve the intensity that I can generate when it is required, the duration that I can sustain that intensity for, and reduce the time required to recover from that effort afterwards, plus increasing the ability to repeat it many times.

I believe that the massive amount of riding i have completed pre season has improved the ability of my body to deliver blood and oxygen to my leg muscles - I have seen considerable vascularization (almost brusing around veins), my resting HR dropped 6 beats, my body fat % is reduced, and my muscle mass is bigger. The downsides have been 3 x feverish colds in 3 months, mouth ulcers and hugely increased spending on food!

I did not notice such improvements when training only SST and L4 in the preseason.

The proof of the pudding will be if I continue to improve as the season develops with my new training, as in previous years, sure, in March I have been ready to go hard, and not surprised by intensity, but last year I noticed little or no improvement from March to september - only an increase in fatigue and frustration. now I feel that each weekend I am going faster, and going further.

Right now I am saying that this justifies for me a 20hr week average for upper level racing.

Doing a little math: 320 hours / 20 hours per week = 16 weeks. L2 is roughly an IF of 0.65 so 20 hours x (0.65^2) x 100 = 845 TSS/week. Over 16 weeks, you have probably plateau'ed your CTL to around 120, which is appropriate for for an elite rider at the beginning of the year.

How many hours of L4 were you doing per week in previous years? Any L2 then? I would bet that your total training volume in previous years did not get you up to a CTL of 120. That could have something to do with you running out of gas last year.

13-03.-2008, 03:59 AM

#19

Steve_B

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Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 490

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc

but just working on raising FTP is a real mistake for these guys because it ignores the reality of their seasons which include many intense, long days back to back.. so their training allows them to deal with that as well...

It's not just FTP. They have acquired some CTL in addition to FTP and that lets them recover better and deal with back-to-back days.

13-03.-2008, 04:23 AM

#20

doctorSpoc

Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: Canada

Posts: 890

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_B

It's not just FTP. They have acquired some CTL in addition to FTP and that lets them recover better and deal with back-to-back days.

that's what i said...

13-03.-2008, 04:32 AM

#21

BullGod

Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006

Posts: 466

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_B

typical week was probably typical of the working guys on the forum

2/3 x 20min L4 x 2/3 per week
2 hrs SST 1/2 x per week
5 x 5min at L5 once a week
6 x 1min L6 once a fortnight
a few sprints on the "big ring" 2 hr outdoor ride on the weekend if the weather was OK.....
total volume - 10-12 hrs per week, most of it done at an "uncomfortable", "this will get me used to racing" kind of pain.

13-03.-2008, 06:21 AM

#22

acoggan

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003

Posts: 2,572

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

Because I do the majority of my training indoors on an ergometer, my average IF is higher than an almost anyone else's. Still, even on 12 h/wk I'd be hard-pressed to get my CTL over 100 TSS/d. IOW, when expressed in terms of TSS your chronic training load is probably at least 20% higher this year, and quite possibly more.

Last edited by acoggan : 13-03.-2008 at 06:43 AM.

13-03.-2008, 06:27 AM

#23

Ade Merckx

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 175

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

I am an elite cat rider, and i am constantly in a cycle of gradual training overload, followed by rest. I try and get total weekly durations over a 4 week block of, for example, 18, 20, 26 then 8 - so you take yourself to being totally shagged, and then recover - then repeat. With timing of races it isn't always easy to stick to a schedule, but if you try and work the rest / easy days into the schedule before important / tough races it works well.

Previosu years I have had to work full time, and have trained lower duration / higher intensity - this year was my first experiment with a massive LSD base over the winter. Apart from a handful of training races, and a classic in Belgium I have only done one L4 training session and one SST since end of season 2007. No L5 yet and not a single sprint in training.

Sure - the first races were strange, but I am feeling / noticing that a massive base of around 320 hours of L2 has given me the engine to rapidly improve the intensity that I can generate when it is required, the duration that I can sustain that intensity for, and reduce the time required to recover from that effort afterwards, plus increasing the ability to repeat it many times.

I believe that the massive amount of riding i have completed pre season has improved the ability of my body to deliver blood and oxygen to my leg muscles - I have seen considerable vascularization (almost brusing around veins), my resting HR dropped 6 beats, my body fat % is reduced, and my muscle mass is bigger. The downsides have been 3 x feverish colds in 3 months, mouth ulcers and hugely increased spending on food!

I did not notice such improvements when training only SST and L4 in the preseason.

The proof of the pudding will be if I continue to improve as the season develops with my new training, as in previous years, sure, in March I have been ready to go hard, and not surprised by intensity, but last year I noticed little or no improvement from March to september - only an increase in fatigue and frustration. now I feel that each weekend I am going faster, and going further.

Right now I am saying that this justifies for me a 20hr week average for upper level racing.

Bulldog this is all really subjective. And after spending all winter 'base' training and suffering in training races its a bit of a no brainer that after a few races you'd begin to feel much better.

You're attributing this to you winter base but you should also attribute it to the SST and L4 workouts from last year. Also not working full time cannot be over looked. Of course results will perhaps be the true testiment to your new training protocol. But to be honest psychologically you'd have to say you feel better this time otherwise all that ill health and riding slow in the cold would appear to be a complete waste of time

13-03.-2008, 06:38 AM

#24

Steve_B

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 490

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

OK, doing some rough calculations, including a reasonable warm-up and cool-down.

2/3 x 20min L4 x 2/3 per week ---> Let's call this ~200 TSS on avg
2 hrs SST 1/2 x per week ---> = ~220 TSS
5 x 5min at L5 once a week ---> =~120 TSS
6 x 1min L6 once a fortnight ---> =~100 TSS
a few sprints on the "big ring" [in a] 2 hr outdoor ride ---> =~100 TSS

Grand total = 740 TSS/week =~105 CTL after 16 weeks. Potentially not a huge difference from 120. Hard to say since the numbers are so rough but my gut feeling just from the description (forgetting about the math) is that you may not have gone above 100 though.

Let's see what you think about "all L2, all the time" in September. I'm genuinely curious.

Last edited by Steve_B : 13-03.-2008 at 06:52 AM. Reason: Addition

13-03.-2008, 06:42 AM

#25

Steve_B

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 490

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc

that's what i said...

I guess I didn't recognize it that way initially.

13-03.-2008, 06:48 AM

#26

thekgb

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007

Posts: 50

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

my knees are hurting at the thought of it!

-Mike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Simmons

3 months solid of 8hrs/week at an IF>1. I don't think that qualifies as a theoretical limit, let alone a practical one.

If you could manage an average IF of 0.9 over the week, then 8hrs x 100 x (0.9)^2 = 648 TSS or a CTL after 2-3 months without a break of about 90.

14-03.-2008, 12:26 PM	#27
grahamspringett Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 128	Re: How far on 8 hours a week? So... in terms of mitochondria, vascularisation and making the ole ticker more efficient, what is it that more hours achieves? Is it that things are damaged more so build up stronger, or that going to extreme fatigue levels makes you fitter? When I'm doing 2x20s, would doing 4x20s make me fitter? The thought of that is rather overwhelming, but if that's what it takes... But how about keeping doing what I'm doing? Surely the improvements will come eventually. Mind you, I'd be pretty useless as a dad if I was absolutely exhausted and probably ill more often. I guess there's a physiological limit, a maximum amount of damage/repair that 8-10 hours affords, that will see me forever doomed to stare at Cadel's back wheel as he disappears up the Ventoux...

14-03.-2008, 12:53 PM

#28

frenchyge

Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Kansas City, USA

Posts: 3,574

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by grahamspringett

So... in terms of mitochondria, vascularisation and making the ole ticker more efficient, what is it that more hours achieves?

The body adapts to the training stimulus provided. More stimulus = more adaptation.

"Alls you can do is alls you can do."

14-03.-2008, 02:00 PM

#29

kclw

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 103

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc

this is a total tangent but... as i was looking at the world hour records i happened to notice the IHPVC hour records (recumbents with full fairing, tear drop coverings)

1hr record - Sam Whittingham (Vancouver, BC)- 87.7km/hr... holy crap!!!
flying 200m 130km/hr
flying 1000 128km/hr

...this is unreal!

Did you also notice that Sam is the same guy who one the best hand made bike recently. Sold the bike for 13,000 to Lance Armstrong.

I use to work and ride with Sam when he was doing the HPV thing. The crazy thing is Sam has a good engine but not a great one (he TTs at 43-45kph on regular TT bike). It is amazing on just how slippery those HPVs are.

14-03.-2008, 02:03 PM

#30

LT Intolerant

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 86

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

The body adapts to the training stimulus provided. More stimulus = more adaptation.

"Alls you can do is alls you can do."

But the question at hand is when do you reach diminshing returns? I would imagine that at some point improvement begins to level off no matter how many hours you put in or how many 2 x 20s you do, and performance may even suffer as you add training load.

Maybe the only way to know is to push yourself to the breaking point and use available tools, the Performance Manager for example, to then manage your training up to your own personal point of diminishing returns.

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