Crazy Gas Prices

roundandround

Hopefully times will get better. Slowly but surely.

alienator

Which times: the ones where we kick the oil habit and actually invest in renewable or alternate energy sources, or the ones where Americans can happily and cheaply fill their gas hog's tank until the oil runs out......in the not too distant future?

kdelong

I agree that we need to kick the oil habit but what practical renewable energy sources do you suggest? Solar Power is great for someplace like Arizona, but what about places like Maine and Minnesota that don't see much sun? Nuclear Power is viable, but expensive and frightens too many people. The waste is a big problem. Biofuels require more energy to make than what they produce and hydrogen requires too much electrical power to make it economically feasible. Renewable or alternate fuels would be great but they have to be less expensive than oil to make sense, otherwise people won't use them and there would be no incentive to develop them. Except when there is no more oil of course.

__________________
One life, one chance. Don't waste it!

Crankyfeet

This could be the first time in the history of the earth, that a species extinguishes a practically non-renewable resource (I guess it takes hundreds of millions of years to renew) in the space of what... 200 years... merely a speck in the ocean of earth's lifetime.

I once asked a CEO of an oil company about this foreseeable scenario of oil running out and future generations being unable to use it (what if it has other uses that we don't even know about). His answer was that we can currently reproduce oil synthetically but it is not worth it at current prices (oil was about $26 a barrel then in 2002). I guess it might be feasible now... at 2008 prices, but I'm skeptical that organic oil can be exactly reproduced in significant volumes. Where does the carbon come from?

RedRider2009

There are many forms of energy which can be incorporated into our society, not necessarily for transportation, but these will limit wastes and use of nonrenewable energy sources like natural gas and coal. Using biomass is not feasible in our society, but it is in 3rd world countries in particular. Hydropower and wind power can be used easily although they are expensive to maintain and obtain, these are still less expensive than nuclear power. Geothermal energy is not available in many places, plus it is expenisve to "harvest" and use. Photovoltaic cells or solar power is the most viable source for energy in many areas of the United States. If all people were willing to have their houses constructed in a certain geometrical shape, the sun would provide heat, and solar power can assist with other necessities in the house.

__________________
"Pain is temporary. It may last a minute, or an hour, or a day, or a year, but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place." -Lance Armstrong

alienator

That's a perfect argument for not doing anything: it has to be less expensive than oil. Using that logic, nothing will get done, and seeing how it's believed that there is less than 100 years of oil left--at current levels of consumption--why, there's no reason to do anything at all. Of course, people could push the country's leadership, but that would require effort. With people like Bush being elected, we certainly don't have to worry about weening ourselves off of oil.

For the record, photovoltaics are much farther along than you or most people even know. Rigid substrate cells are over 15% efficient and going up. A new PV structure was demonstrated to be 40%+ efficient. Elsewhere, work is going with solar collectors to overcome the efficiency limits of PV by concentrating more energy on the PV sites. Even with low efficiency, you lose nothing at all. There are no byproducts and no thermal effluent. As long as the Sun exists there is energy. PV costs are low enough to be incorporated into building costs and building upgrades. Arizona, alone, could provide, with current technology, over 10% of the countries energy. Solar cell farms are being built here.

Wind turbines are cheap, easy to install, and again have no harmful byproduct. There are many roof mounted turbines--with prop spans of a meter or so--on the market for homeowners. In both cases, PV and wind turbine, it doesn't matter if they sit idle for a period of time. When they're not idle, they pay for themselves and provide, in terms of Earth's thermodynamic system, free energy.

With hybrid technology now available, the manufacture of IC cars should come to an end. The technology for electric cars is already here. That is a fact. In fact, part of my work group at a defense contractor went to an auto manufacturers fuel cell research center. We were offered, for our project, free fuel cells. These cells were very advanced spec, yet they were several generations old for that auto manufacturer. Of course there's no need to start putting that technology on the road, when you can still suck more money out of the IC production lines. It's better to wait so the profit will go up for fuel cell technology.

Nuclear fusion is a viable option somewhere in the future, but fusion research in this country has been hamstrung by coal and oil interests and the president who lives off of them.

Nuclear fission is a real option. The vast majority of nuclear waste is low level waste in the form of tools, pipes, and etc. The French make great use of nuclear fission and their fuel reprocessing. Once again, we could learn a thing or two from the French.

Energy research? That's not even in the vocabulary of the current government. The DOE focuses a large portion of its work on military/defense/weapons research.

Next year, our house is getting a PV array, a wind turbine, and a water farming tank. We're of the mind that we should pay now, instead of passing the cost onto our children.

With that cost being increased conflict in the world as energy resources become more scarce as the world's population increases, global warming that may become irreversible, and the disease, food shortages, and other fun things that come of all that, it seems pretty fucking petty, for people today, to complain about "the cost," when none of us will pay the real cost.

There are many other ways to ease our energy problems, but at least in this country and others, no one seems particularly interested in trying. Why should they when oil and gas are so cheap? Hell, we'll be dead when the oil runs out. It's not our problem, right?

Powerful Pete

Interesting discussion. I have always been surprised about the American fascination with the 'it's only a small aircraft carrier = not big enough car for me' mentality.

I find it interesting that the 1.8cc gas engine in my Toyota Corolla Verso is able to get me and the family (four people, four bicycles, lots of luggage) wherever we need in comfort and with sufficient speed. I speak to my brothers in law and they do not understand how I can survive with anything less than a V12 and 6800 cubic inch engine, or some such silliness, which they then drive in mortal fear of the traffic police at about 3kph (I remember arguing in the US when I was pulled over in a rented Nissan Altima - I was doing over 15mph in a school zone when the 'lights were flashing'... mamma mia!). But I digress...

And please do not complain about gasoline prices in the US. LOL. I always find this entertaining. If you had European gas prices FOREVER then there would be little joking about the size of European cars, while you all fought to purchase an 850cc Hyundai/Fiat/Citroen or whatever else actually makes sense to drive.

For the record, want to discourage the driving culture? Tax gasoline. Increase tolls. Watch the gas guzzlers become less common...

For the posters who come up with all kinds of reasons to have trucks - funny that plenty of contractors seem to survive just fine in Europe without Dodge Rams or Ford F150s... doing the same job (sorry, not picking on anyone in particular, but there is ALWAYS a reason not to change habits)!

BTW, we have installed a pantload of solar panels in our backyard, and supply energty into the national grid and are paid handsomely for it by the government, as part of their (small and sad) effort to plug into alternative sources. This year I begin commuting to work by bicycle. In Rome, possibly the most bike unfriendly city short of Istanbul or something. Come to see real traffic...

And as a family we heat our water through solar panels. And despite relatively high installation costs, we still save money year-round!

Sorry for the rant. We all need to do more in this regard...

__________________
De Rosa Planet
Campagnolo Per Sempre!
PAOLO BETTINI CAMPIONE DEL MONDO x 2!

TheDarkLord

Agree with every single one of your comments. A couple have a baby, and immediately they have to sell their sedan (which can fit a family with 2 children easily) and buy a SUV! This is literally true since that's how I bought my first car second-hand - the person selling it got an SUV because the couple had a baby. You can always come up with umpteen excuses on why you need SUVs and trucks; the reality is that you often CAN manage without those things.

BTW Pete, the $3+ per gallon gasoline is already beginning to change the car culture if I read the news articles correctly. Some families have sold 2 of their 3 SUVs in exchange for smaller and more fuel efficient cars. That's a start. But there is a fundamental problem in that mass transit is quite under-developed in US. If you have to go from one city to another, you often take the train in Europe, while in contrast, you drive in US. Dunno if that will change anytime in future. The point is not that driving cars is bad (ok, not exactly true, but that is a different story), but that there is often no alternative to driving in US as opposed to Europe.