Page 2 - Pyramid Intervals

21-02.-2008, 08:01 AM	#16
BullGod Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 467	Re: Pyramid Intervals Andy, why do so many top riders do so little intensive trainiung this time of year? I know some guys who train with a couple of guys from Rabobank and Shimano and all they're doing is 6 hr base rides, even now. Tjalliungi from Shimano apparently doesn't go above 140 on his HR when training until spring. If I mention "intervals" to my teammates they look at me as if i just suggested turning up for the next race riding wheel barrows or something.....the consenus seems to be ride 20hrs a week on the inner chainring and race on the weekend. A doctor of sports medicine a teammate of mine is trained by says we should ride no more thn one race a week for feb and march and do nothing more intensive in training than a few sprints on the inner chainring. what is your response to this kind of opinion that is so prevalent in these parts?

21-02.-2008, 12:48 PM

#17

postal_bag

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 193

Re: Pyramid Intervals

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

Thanks for the tips oin bunch riding. It is a weak point for me. I waste way too much energy either being near the back through corners or moving up at the wrong times only to get passed again when it slows. This weekend I am lining up at the front and going hard from the off. When things break up I intend to be right up in the running.

I tried the HOP workout, but I got too into it in the first 10 minutes and saw I was sitting on or above 350 for the SST bits......rather than ease off I decided to tuen the interval into a 20 miniute FTP test and I got 357.......pretty happy with this.

2 more races coming up this weekend so no more intensive training for a while....jut some easy miles and recovery. after 780km last week I need that :-)

Did you get in another 40-60' SST afterwards?

Not to be negative, but have you considered the possibility that some people are not being honest about their training? Especially if they see you as some sort of "threat". Also, there is that old saying, something like "maybe they are 'champions' despite their training, not because of it".

I have a similar FTP to yours, but I have been training only 8-10 hrs a week. I have not done any L5 or L6 training to this point. Some of my workouts since January are as follows:

3x30' @ 315 w

20' @ 345 w, followed by 35' @ 318 w

30' @ 315 w (2' over/2' under), followed by 30' @ 327 w (2' over/2' under) followed by 15' @ 320 w

30' @ 327 w (1' over/1' under), followed by 30' @ 322 w, followed by 20' @ 347 w, followed by 20' @ 313 w

30' @ 338 w (3' over/2' under), followed by 30' @ 325 w, followed by 20' @ 325 w (1' over/1' under), followed by 10' @ 312 w

120' @ 288 w, followed by 20' @ 329 w (1' over/1' under)

30' @ 332 w, followed by 30' @ 338 w (3' over, 2' under), followed by 30' @ 313 w

4x40' @ 285-295 w with spin-ups & "sprints"

20' HOP @ 344 w, followed by 20' @ 345 w (3' over/2' under), followed by 20' HOP @ 325 w

3x40' @ 317-320 w

20' @ 351 w, followed by 20' @ 354 w (1' over/1' under), followed by 30' @ 330 w, followed by 13' @ 326 w (gave-up on this one)

2x40' @ 319 w, followed by 30' @ 311 w

I don't consider this "high intensity" training. I have really only done a total of about 1.5 hrs @ FTP in the past 4 months. I think my SST volume, speaks volumes about my base.

I am looking forward to spring, when I will add a 5-6 hr L2-3 ride, mostly for the joy of riding outdoors (and the ~350 TSS, of course.)

21-02.-2008, 01:12 PM

#18

Jono L

Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Australia

Posts: 1,655

Re: Pyramid Intervals

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

what is your response to this kind of opinion that is so prevalent in these parts?

I would say it's bullshit and do what you want. Some of the aussie pro's have been out smashing it since december.

With the bunch work, stick your elbows out when gaps open beside you to try and discourage anyone from taking them. Also, don't be afraid to lean on or even gently push people to open up gaps. You won't crash. they'll let you in or tell you fuck off before you get anywhere near crashing.

21-02.-2008, 02:07 PM

#19

whoawhoa

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,018

Re: Pyramid Intervals

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

Andy,

why do so many top riders do so little intensive trainiung this time of year?

I know some guys who train with a couple of guys from Rabobank and Shimano and all they're doing is 6 hr base rides, even now. Tjalliungi from Shimano apparently doesn't go above 140 on his HR when training until spring.

If I mention "intervals" to my teammates they look at me as if i just suggested turning up for the next race riding wheel barrows or something.....the consenus seems to be ride 20hrs a week on the inner chainring and race on the weekend.

A doctor of sports medicine a teammate of mine is trained by says we should ride no more thn one race a week for feb and march and do nothing more intensive in training than a few sprints on the inner chainring.

what is your response to this kind of opinion that is so prevalent in these parts?

Probably for the same reason some tell you not to eat any tomato sauce the day before racing.

21-02.-2008, 07:50 PM	#20
BullGod Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 467	Re: Pyramid Intervals Something of interest is that after3 months of BASE training my FTP is actually slightly higher than it was when I tested in November, juyst after season end. Also, significant parts of my base rides have been SST - when you have a massive headwind and you're miles from home it's easy to get a more intense ride than you planned. I figure with the base I have when it's tme to start the intense training my FTP should hopefully risesome, and I'm hoping it will rise faster asnd more than if I had spend the winter on the trainer doing 2 x 20's. I will now add one dedicated L4 training session per week to my schedule. with weekly races of 2hr duration I should get plenty of intensity. I don't think I will add any L5 until FTP stagnates. L6 and 7 are covered by these races, believe me - they're fast. I'm sort of tornm between different impulses at the moment: build enduranmce for races of up to 200km distamnce / keep gas in the tank for racing / recover / build speed. Getting the balance right is tough, especially as I fcuked up last year by doing way too much intense training in the winter. I was good in early season, but made no improvements.

21-02.-2008, 07:54 PM

#21

Ade Merckx

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 179

Re: Pyramid Intervals

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoawhoa

Probably for the same reason some tell you not to eat any tomato sauce the day before racing.

whoa whoa whats up? Long time no post... How's your racing and training going? Long before we had Dave you were putting some wise words on this forum.

22-02.-2008, 04:05 AM

#22

Steve_B

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 530

Re: Pyramid Intervals

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

Getting the balance right is tough, especially as I fcuked up last year by doing way too much intense training in the winter. I was good in early season, but made no improvements.

It is possible that ran out of base (however you define base) because you never built a sufficient one over the winter.

22-02.-2008, 05:01 AM

#23

Steve_B

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 530

Re: Pyramid Intervals

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

I'm not Andy and I'm not going to speak for him, but if you read enough of the forums and written materials that are available, you will see that SST training (predominantly L3 and L4) is offered as an alternative to what you spent most of the winter doing (L1/L2) because it is more time efficient. There’s plenty of research and anecdotal evidence that says that you may achieve a lot of the same results taking either approach but the SST model cuts way down on the time needed to achieve it. For those of us that have jobs, families, etc., that's important. The dominant paradigm in European racing is exactly what you've spent the winter doing. Then again, your job and the job of Euro pro riders is riding a bike and you've got a lot more time available.

As far as why the recommendation is small-ring riding, etc., a few thoughts:

As whoawhoa alluded to, prevailing European attitudes (usually described as Belgian, make a Belgian joke if you wish ) about training and recovery tend to be really outdated to us: don't eat tomato sauce the day before a race, don't keep plants in your bedroom because it will suck all the oxygen out, a hat and long sleeves are necessary when the temperature drops below 21C (70F), even if you are indoors. So, the training that worked for Bobet, Anquetil, Merckx, Coppi and Bartali was probably great in their day but things have moved on since that time. Science has been applied and more effective ways of doing things have come about. Not everyone in Euro-land got the e-mail about this, if you know what I mean. Or they’re stubborn. Or too conservative and unwilling to try something new. If it worked for Merckx, it should work for everyone, right?
You will be doing a lot of intense racing over the year, right up until October/ November (I assume). That's a lot of stress and adding a lot of SST on top of that, if not managed correctly, could be too much. Keeping the intensity down is one way to avoid this possibility. It's not a justification so much as an explanation.

Last edited by Steve_B : 22-02.-2008 at 05:23 AM.

22-02.-2008, 05:19 AM

#24

thekgb

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007

Posts: 50

Re: Pyramid Intervals

i'm no pro, but have been involved in enough years of these "spring" training races you talk of, and invariably with such a diversity of fitness levels involved, the seasoned guys who know this break things up real fast with the early breakaway, and then the rest of us sit back and feed off the scraps. if i could hold their pace i'd go with em'.

i agree with the others....get up front, be patient, keep the strong guys close by and go with them when they go. Or, be a champ, start the break yourself!!!! Sounds like you have the legs to do it...and don't be worried, the worst that can happen is you get a good effort in...it is a trainign race after all..

Also, with regards to "pro" training, there were some prior posts on the "what makes you more efficient" thread by Urkiola2 (sorry if i spelt that wrong) which highlight some of the things you have been asking about with regard to "pro" training approaches. very insightful.

Mike

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

I wish man.....most of these guys have been racing for decades.....I'm pretty fit, but only took up cycling at 25....so I'm learning all the time about tactics and bunch positioning. It's infuriating but I still get anxious when it "bunches up" during the slower moments, and I seem to prefer moving up the back during the faster stretches as there is more space and I have the speed. However, I'll move up 10 places on a fast strait, only to have 20 weaker riders swamping past me the moment it goes slow.

Basically my bike handling and confidence moving around the bunch suck. I notice this especially in the preseason races with all the lower cat riders, as some of them, especially the juniors, are just plain dangerous and I find myself easing towards the back of the bunch when it goets hectic only to find myself doing nothing else but closing big gaps once the speed gets turned on. I sa w plenty of other elites mocing effortlessly through the bunch but I try the same only to get blocked off by some guy who won't give up his place for anything......

22-02.-2008, 06:11 AM

#25

acoggan

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003

Posts: 2,587

Re: Pyramid Intervals

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

Well, the smartass in me is tempted to reply "so how's that workin' out for ya?", but I will resist the temptation since this is the Internet and my attempt at humor may fall flat.

Seriously, I would say that there's always a trade-off between intensity and volume, both are useful but too much of either at the wrong time won't result in your best performance occuring when you want it to, and that really the only way to determine what mix best enables you to achieve your goals is to experiment a bit, i.e., this is a question best answered empircally, vs. scientifically. My comment about you needing more high intensity work should be interpreted only in the context of the fact that you were lamenting your performance in these spring races, i.e., you appear to be placing some emphasis upon them, and yet your training program doesn't seem to be optimally designed to assure a commensurate level of performance. If, OTOH, they truly aren't important to you, well, then I might withdraw the comment (or maybe not).

23-02.-2008, 05:56 PM	#26
swampy1970 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 452	Re: Pyramid Intervals BullGod, With countless hours of time invested in training maybe you could turn up 15 minutes earlier to the start line just so you can start up front. The time you spend with your nose in the wind on the front of the bunch when the first break goes will be less than scrambling around the other riders at the back of the field anyway. If you don't have anything set at this time of year as a goal then I wouldn't be overly concerned about the lack of top end zing. If you did have lofty goals planned then just consider it a lesson learned for next year and go out and do 45 second intervals until your legs fall off and you puke at the side of the road - cause that's what you feel like doing when you can't bridge that "gap that broke the camels back...." Whatever the situation - good luck.

24-02.-2008, 11:39 AM	#27
doctorSpoc Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 897	Re: Pyramid Intervals BullGod you don't need intensity training, you need to learn how to ride in a group.. it's really obvious. you're just to be too scared and even your tactics when you use them seem to be dead wrong e.g. never ever, never move up when it speeds up unless you absolutely have to in order to make a break or something... all those cat 5s that swarm you are dead on right.. why kill yourself to move up at the most difficult possible moments in the race killing yourself for nothing, when you can move up even more places by just coasting and not braking as early as others and wind your way through the group... this is really basic stuff... if it's going fast hold your place unless the guy(s) in front of you are getting dropped... when it's slows down move up... if it's steady move up through the group and in the draft some things to try... other than when it's moving fast is NOT the time to move up: 1) since your instincts on group riding seem to be wrong one method that might work for you is to just follow someone in the pack that you know is going to make the cut... don't have to be right on their wheel, just be around them.. no more the 2-3 guys away and just do as they do until you learn the drill. 2) another thing you might try is to just take some air out of you tires 10psi or so... sometimes guys put so much air in their tires that their bike handle like crap... take 10psi out of your tires and your bike rides like it's on rails 3) always be on the lookout for a split happening in a group.. fill it as fast as you can or try to get the guy in front of you to.. just yell at him and let him know that a split is happening... get that gap filled as fast as possbile 4) just keep on doing the races until you get comfortable... sometimes it just takes time... don't be passive.. if you initiate things then you are in control.. basically... grow some balls

26-02.-2008, 07:23 AM

#28

swampy1970

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 452

Re: Pyramid Intervals

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullGod

As I can't rely on these training races

Maybe you just need more of the training races to become comfortable with riding in a bunch at speed.

If you know someone who's good or have friends who are pretty experienced then glue yourself to their back wheel. Like doctocspoc said, you don't have to be within a few inches but I'm not too sure about the 3 bike lengths though....

Remember that it's a training race. Have fun... make it fun for yourself. You sound like you're able to bridge gaps while at the back and have the power to do that repeatedly - so have a go off the front and use that effort to test the others. If you get within the first 15 or so in the bunch and everyone starts to slow then nail it. Give it your best 30 second effort. Do not look back, do not pause. Pass GO and collect $200.

If anything, if you and a few others do get off the front then you won't have as many people to deal with and your weaknesses and frustrations on dealing with 60+riders and position/pace changes will be pretty much negated. Besides, being in the front is normally less costly to collarbone health and your bank account.

26-02.-2008, 07:32 PM	#29
BullGod Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 467	Re: Pyramid Intervals This weekend went really well. Saturday was really fast, but I got up front from the off and didn't have too many problems. I found a few places where it was easy for me to move up (headwind section where everyone bunched up not wanting to work and a small climb) and actually enjoyed it. After 90 minutes only about 25 riders were left in the race, with one group a lap ahead of the second group, and the ssecond group had a lap on the peloton :-) and it was rather chaotic. A highlight for me iwas a junior rider opening a gap ion front of me at 50km/h into the headwind, and a guyy from the Fondas team pushing me for 10 seconds to close the gap - at 50, into a headwind........unbelievable - but then those guys are riding Kuurne- Brussel-Kuurne on sunday This sunday was also fine. Actually got on second wheel in lap 1 of a short circuit, with the Dutch criterium champion ahead of me. I had a rush of blood to the head and actually attacked him, which was a bad moveThis guy is the fastest short course rider in Holland, and he had no trouble catching me. and then counter attacking. The peloton followed him, and boy did I have fun trying to hang on the back for a few laps/ I have to remember that both these races were less wellattended , but with a lot of top level riders. This made it easier to move up, and less gaps top ride shut, but this isn't a problem as my races will be more like this.....apart from the classics which will be mayhem. Might race in Belgium this weekend....but weather forecast is for heavy rain and gales.....maybe not ideal condiitions for initiiation in Belgium. Ronde van Groningen is in 12 days, and with 2 races this coming weekend I think training will be not too intensive until then. Maybe some sprints and SST / L4, but L5 and 6 will have too wait as I don't want any lingering fatigue in the legs for a 180km race that tends to be ridden at an annual average of 45kph.

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