No Tour for Astana

thunder

yes, but you shut me down pretty quickly.

squidwranglr

thunder, in case it's not clear, I'm applying the same litmus test to classic1's assertion. I find a documented positive steroid test, whether any sanctions were applied by the sport's governing body at the time or not, for an athlete of legendery status like Mark Allen, to be highly unlikely to be not found on the Internet. I am stating that I'm ready to be educated and humbled if he'd like to dig up the exact reference, which I believe he has asserted he can't be bothered to find and that I can also totally understand and respect.

We can all agree to disagree. That's part of civilized debate, too.

Berend

classic1

If I come across it again I'll scan it, but I'm not making a special effort as I don't even know exactly where I have half the magazines stashed. I had a quick look before and know a couple are mislaid, like my 86 tour edition. Bugger. Anyway, my shed searching priorities are focused on a missing set of keys for a cable lock and two missing toe straps. I probably should check the dog kennel.

whiteboytrash

Be careful which magazine stash you look in..... one contains lycra then other leather....

serpico7

Been wondering about this myself. If we assume Slipstream are clean, then perhaps those finishing below Millar and Vande Velde are either not doping or doping very lightly because this is only the ToC and they're waiting for the GTs and the training period before the GTs to take the risks involved with a full on doping regimen.

hawkeye87

I realize that all of these guys are professional cyclists and, as such, are in the same class, so to speak, with talent.

However, they are not all equal. Wouldn't it be possible for a mediocre pro rider (relatively speaking) to find himself in the Top 15 where normally he would be in the Top 40?

If we assume that Slipstream does not dope (I would that is the case), then I do not think that anyone who dopes would automatically be better than them.

You have a lot of variables in this dynamic, aside from doping, to consider. Such things as degrees of fitness, effects of weather, etc.

I do not necessarily buy into the absolute that a clean rider can never beat a doped rider, especially when looking at one stage or, perhaps, a 7-stage race.

However, I cannot fathom that a clean rider would stand a chance against a relatively equally skilled rider who doped in a grand tour for GC standing.

limerickman

Au contraire, mon ami - any objective examination of young Schlecks career would indicate that his Giro form last year wasn't exceptional.
The man's got great potential and excellent pedigree.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

100% Correct : Moreni was a good roadman.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

thunder

not really, a whole lotta hyperbole from CSC fanbois and Riis.

The twins Velits were outclimbing and out timetrialling him as juniors, and espoirs, then bingo, Schleck gets the rocket fuel.

Also Walker was classier.

Went from a competent tter at jnr and espoir level, to world beater. It does not pass the smell test. The Velits bros do not believe his meteoric rise.

Yeah, so he won a Tour of Normandie and won a stage in the Denmark Rundt, but the guy is a mega doper just like his brother.

limerickman

Those Schleck boys are solid riders and have the potential to do well.

I remember racing against their father - he's a former pro.
In the genes.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

thunder

for starters, there are not many PT teams in Cali. Secondly, did they bring their best tters/rouleurs and grimpeurs? Ofcourse not.

There are only a handful of Euro pros who really came to race. And perhaps one or two who had eyes on the GC prize. Bigger fish come the season proper.

Lets not make the Tour of Cali to be the Tour de Suisse. It aint.

thunder

yeah, so Lim, Andy has been riding with fast bunches since he was 15, and the Velits boys outshone him coming from Slovakia, and Walker coming from Australia.

What happens when he gets some of Riis' go fast gear? He goes fast!

limerickman

Maybe it's all down to the fact of those survival courses that CSC do up in the Scandinavian fjords !!!!!!!!!!!

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Anticyclone

Can you compare this year's results to last years? From what i can see the tt course is pretty much the same this year and the times are a bit slower.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/200...s/california085
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/200...s/california075

The course is 0.5km longer but i dont know if the extra bit was flat or hilly. This will make a difference to comparing times but i still think it would work out a bit slower. Also, last year was quite windy - the headwind at first would have turned into a tailwind later on but i think that this would have made last year's tt harder. The stage before the tt this year was the same as last year. It took them almost 2 hours longer this year The bad weather this year makes it very difficult to draw any conclusions from this but my point is more the effect on the next day. I would have thought that a slower stage on the previous day would have resulted in faster times in the tt the following day due to the riders being less tired? (although 7 hours in the rain does not on the face of it sound like good preparation:rolleyes.

There are too many variables to draw any big conclusions (a lot of different riders taking part, how much had they trained to peak for the event (see serpico's post), etc, as well as the above). However, if i was to stick my neck out then i would say that last year's tt was faster