Leg power discrepency

acoggan

Prior to the 1984 Olympics, the US team pursuit squad trained extensively with EMG biofeedback to encourage extensive "pulling up", but reverted to their prior pattern of muscle activation when they stopped training this way. Much more recently, both Jeff Broker and Max Testa have anecdotally reported that they've seen PowerCrankers revert to their prior way of pedaling once they stopped using the cranks (as much). Finally, on another forum someone (Frank himself?) linked to a PowerPoint presentation from an Italian (?) researcher who reported the same thing, i.e., that continual reinforcement is necessary.

veloventoux

During last 3 months 2500 kms on PC's and 1000 kms on regular cranks.
A very positive thing happened with the use of the PC's wich I didnt expect when I first decided to ride with them, is that I dont suffer anymore from my hip surgery (I have a hip prothesis like Landis ).

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Jeff a dit le meilleur est à venir.

veloventoux

Merci! But I'm not searching for "perfect" balance , just balance is enough!

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Jeff a dit le meilleur est à venir.

Fday

We are talking about trying to change unconscious, ingrained, spinal reflex coordination. It makes sense to me that part time (or short duration) encouragement would be less than 100% effective and that people would sooner or later revert right back to where they were without continued reinforcement. That is in agreement with the studies and observations you mention.

What blows me away is how someone like Max Testa, who has many athletes on PowerCranks, understands the benefits of the cranks, understands that the beneficial changes may not be permanent, but, seemingly, doesn't understand that more extensive use, like exclusive use for a period of time (which is what I recommend for this very reason), would minimize this back slide since Max tends to recommend the PC's be used only twice per week in his elite athletes, as I understand it. He is in contact with some athletes in SLC now who are using them pretty much exclusively and maybe he will eventually come around as he sees this backsliding does not necessarily have to occur or, at least, it doesn't have to occur quickly.

Fday

At least, now we can explain your imbalance. Injury indeed. :-)

One question, what kind of problems were you having with your hip before PC's (I assume pain was one, was there more) and how long did it take for them to resolve after starting training with them? Now, it is just a matter of continuing the rehab to complete balance.

Also, congratulations on your PC mileage. Those 1000 kms on regular cranks though is slowing the balancing process down somewhat I suspect. You should eventually make it but it is going to go a little bit slower than if you were exclusive PC's. Not sure if your season will allow this but I would try to go all PC's until you are fully balanced and then try to re-integrate regular cranks back into the training fold to keep you "race ready on regular cranks".

Steve_B

Ok, so two follow up questions for you:

The people that I personally know have used power cranks don't use them 100% of the time, of course, and it seems like you accept that. Given that is the case, we can assume that at some point a rider will use conventional cranks for some riding.

So let's assume that the rider does change over to conventional cranks for some period of time. Do you have any data from the period of time immediately after the changeover (presumably while the rider is still "under the influence" of power cranks), when presumably, their pedalling is close(r) to a perfect 50/50 balance, that says that the rider will put out more power on conventional cranks? Hopefully this data would be from a "downstream" power meter, i.e., not an ergomo.

Also, assuming the now continue to ride with conventional cranks, do you have any data that shows a power drop off with continued use of conventional cranks (when their balance presumably degenerates)?

Fday

How our customers use the product is all over the map despite our best efforts to use them as we feel is optimum. Regardless of what we feel is best I accept that most of our customers use them in a manner they feel will be optimum for them. They pay their money, they can use them as the want. My impression is that most of our customers use regular cranks at least some of the time regularly, . Many go exclusive during the off season then part time during the season. Others are part-time from the get go. Only a hand full a exclusive use all the time, including racing.

Now, regarding data, I have none other than the anecdotal data I get from grilling customers who I happen to talk to about their experiences. My expectation is that it is sort of like training in general. The more base you have the slower you lose your ability if you stop training. I think the same is true of the PC pedaling pattern. So, if you have 6 weeks on them and then do an Ironman 112 bike race you can expect to be pretty much back to your earlier pedaling style by mile 25. If you have 2 years and 20,000 miles on them you can expect your pedaling style will remain good for the entire race.

One thing is clear, people who used them quite a bit, stopped during the season, and then get back on them the next off season, do not start from the same "zero" level they were at when they first started them. So, it is clear, while they have lost something, they have not even come close to losing everything. That suggests to me that they continue to pedal the pattern and use the muscles more than they did before PC's but less than the PC's force them to do, so they lose something but not everything.

So, the only data I have is anecdotal (plus the Italian study which doesn't tell us much because it was so short) but it is better than nothing. Does that answer your question?

Steve_B

Yes.

I assume that you understand why I would want to see such a thing; it would go a long way toward showing the positive effects. Ultimately, I want something to either give me more power, increase my speed or reduce my PE (or all the above). Without quantifiable results, it can be a tough sell.

swampy1970

What's a "downstream" powermeter - are these like the big water wheels that used to power the mills back in merry old England?

Would your description of "downstream" rule out the SRM units?

If a power measuring device provides repeatable results why the hatred?

I know that after using the Powercranks since November, but despite weighing more than I did last summer, I'm faster up the hill I use for testing. I have the Powercranks with the "lockout mode" and decided to lock them out on two rides up the hill to (a) let me see what it feel like to 'have it easy' again and (b) ride out of the darned saddle for a while longer.

I do have a question for Frank though. Is it a physical impossibility to ride out of the saddle when on a trainer? The "family jewels" would appreciate me standing up every once in a while.

swampy1970

Isn't part of training the aspect of continual positive reinforcement and forcing the body to work in a way that you believe it to be most beneficial for the results that you intend? I thought that was basic training 101... If you stop doing something that taxes you in a particular way the why would you think that you'd keep the improvements over a long period of time?

veloventoux

I fell off the bike in 2003 had a classic surgery for a broken neck of femur. One year later a necrosis of the femoral head was diagnosed. Total hip prothesis.
In fact my suffering from my hip prothesis was never on the bike. It was when I'd stay seated for a while (let say 15' or 20' or more) and I'd stand up then it 'd be painful to start walking again. Pain would last for a few seconds then the painful sensation would disappear while walking.
After doing a few weeks of PC's training I realized that that particular painful sensation when standing up had diseappeared.

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Jeff a dit le meilleur est à venir.

veloventoux

I had the opportunity of sharing some time with one of the Credit Agricole Pro Tour teamate Remy Pauriol who's been riding on PC's (training) for 2 years now.
He told me that beside the regular winter training on PC's (and regular cranks) he was doing some PCranking during the racing season, mainly to help his recovering in between races and also to do some kind of "recalling" (in french we'd say piqure de rappel) for his pedaling technique which according to him is the most important interest in the PC's.

__________________
Jeff a dit le meilleur est à venir.

Steve_B

Ergomos are proven to be less accurate than SRMs and Power Taps. I would not want its problems mucking up the data.

Unfortunately when you show something other than simple blind acceptance and ask someone something more pointed and specific than a "softball" question, it's regarded by some as "hatred" for some reason that escapes my understanding. It's called technical inquiry. You don't have to hate in order want real answers.

How can you be sure that it is due to the PC's and not any other training intervention?

Fday

Wow!!! I will have to put on my thinking cap as to what we might have done to help with the sitting to standing problem you had. I can only think that it must be related to the muscle balancing. At least most people will not say this is related to placebo effect as I can't think of anyone who might have anticipated such a change from using these.

And, thanks for the PM giving me more details. I am always trying to learn as much as I can about what these may or may not do and the specifics of peoples experiences so I can tell others should they have a similar problem.