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thunder

House?

there are alot, who refuse to admit the facts, and hide behind specious defenses of definitions of evidence, of procedure.

We are not talking civil liberties. We are trying to get the most realistic picture.

To deny the presence of the positive samples, deny Vaughters and Andreu IM, to deny the insulin and actovegin and blood swabs in the medical waste, is to deny the facts.

The facts are the 6 positives are compromised, but they are what they are. Compromised, but they exist, they exist in that status, where you attribute enough weight according to their compromised status.

To dismiss them out of hand, is, exactly the same as suggesting Armstrong should have his 1999 win taken back because he was doped. You cannot revoke his status in the annals of history because of the compromised samples. But the samples, compromised as they are, exist.

The relationship to Ferrari exists.

You cannot dismiss them out of hand. That is the disingenuousness and insidiousness of defending Armstrong. You have to dismiss all evidence. I do not think the compromised samples existing on their own attribute to much, but the sheer cumulative weight of all information surrounding Armstrong paints the most damning reality.

House can support Armstrong, and say he cannot be sure, but that is insidious, and just as malignant as any cancer, as it allows the Commander in Chief to take you into a war, without the keen criticism, and holding powerful individuals to account.

C'dale Girl

Uh-oh, could it be? Nah, surely it's for real . . . right? People wouldn't use the net for such a deceitful purpose, surely not . . .

TheDarkLord

You are a pretty good conspiracy theorist!

Crankyfeet

Why do we keep bothering to get annoyed with these guys? We know Armstrong doped. We know why he would claim that he didn't. Trying to convince people who can't see the truth is perhaps like trying to convince people 500 years ago that the world is not flat. Except that those who still view Armstrong as having rode clean are probably in the minority now.

IMHO We need to preserve these Armstrong diehards. Lest we won't have any fun making them look silly on forums...

thunder

no, my point was, they know he doped. The only ones who do not, are those who only follow in July. Everyone on messageboards know.

My point is the lie.

thoughtforfood

I think it was that he fouled the team I wanted to win that was the biggest factor. Like I said, if it had been the Lakers, I would have laughed. Of course, now that the Hornets left town I guess I shouldn't hold a grudge..of course that never stopped me.

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If this van is a'rockin, don't come a'knockin

Bro Deal

Maybe he should start a news letter. He's got the appropriate name.

Cranky's Conspiracy Chronicle. Now printed on real paper!

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"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

thoughtforfood

The problem is that denial suspends the lie in a no man's land where it only tuggs at their conscience a little because the greatest extent of their time is spent defending the idea of life before the truth came along and threatened it. They know but they don't. The most conscious part of their belief is the old one of which they cannot let go. I am past the denial, though I once held that same denial. The stages are clear:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
4. Acceptance

Some people never get past the first or second.

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thunder

correct, there are multiple levels. Subconsciously they know, it is a cognitive dissonance.

Crankyfeet

Cognitive dissonance sounds like it could mean the feeling I have trying to understand WTF that means...

thoughtforfood

Yea, and their's goes to 11.

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TheDarkLord

The multiple levels thing is true if you are emotionally attached to the person/outcome. If someone is detached, it just goes from TFF's stage 0 (prior to denial) to stage 5. And I assume that was the way it was for the people here who were not Armstrong fans (and I'm not really referring to haters here)...

thoughtforfood

I would say that it depends. It is akin to the phenomenon of seeking out the tragedy of others in order to feel emotion. Some people are caught up in the accomplishments of others because they can partially place themselves in the winning moment and generate the watered down feeling that they accomplished that thing. In attacking that accomplishment, they take on the attributes of a person who is facing the accusation as though it were their own. It isn't as strong in most cases, though in extreme cases the reaction can be as strong as or stronger than the person being accused. In that instance they see themselves as the "protector" or "savior" of that person, and can become quite caught up in the drama of the event. It is pretty sick shit.

edit: I re-read your post TDL, and see that you are speaking of the same thing, only for those who are not attached. I guess what I said is pointless.

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TheDarkLord

Correct, regarding the second paragraph. I think we are in full agreement here. I understand what you are saying in the first paragraph, but a person going through such a reaction become emotionally attached to the athlete in question, and that immediately clouds their judgement.