Ewwww....

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 07:01:20 -0600, Tom Sherman
<sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

>19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome.

Anywhere? For anyone? For any purpose?

Wow.

DanKMTB@gmail.com

On Feb 5, 6:13 pm, MattB <somedud...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Scott Gordo wrote:
> > Never been big into Cannondales, but no company deserves this:
>
> > "Cannondale announces acquisition by Dorel Industries, Ltd.
>
> > Cannondale announced that it has been acquired by Dorel Industries,
> > Ltd., a Montreal, Canada-based 'global consumer products company' with
> > US$1.8B in total sales last year. Dorel purchased Cannondale from a
> > division of Pegasus Capital Advisors for a reported US$190-200M in
> > cash but the final value of the transaction will be determined pending
> > the report of Cannondale's annual earnings ending June 30, 2008. Also
> > included in the sale is Canada-based cycling, running, and triathlon
> > clothing manufacturer Sugoi Performance Apparel.
>
> > Dorel adds Cannondale to its impressive portfolio of bicycle holdings
> > which already includes Pacific Cycle, parent company of the GT,
> > Mongoose, and Schwinn brand names. With this most recent acquisition,
> > Dorel will now reorganize its so-called Recreational/Leisure segment
> > into two distinct bicycle divisions: one to specifically address the
> > needs of the independent bicycle dealer (IBD) channel and the other
> > dealing exclusively with mass market, or 'big box', outlets such as
> > Wal-Mart....":
>
> > Rest of article athttp://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/news/02-05.
>
> > Scott
>
> A fate worse than death. "To the PAIN!"
>
> Matt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The first thing you will lose will be your status, now below all else.
Then your QA at the outsourcing. Next your material quality...

Not a huge crack'n'fail fan, but bad news none the less.

Jay Beattie

On Feb 6, 3:59*am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 1:58*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 6, 3:12*am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > I guesss you don't recall the early (1983-84) C'dales, eh? Some of the
> > > ugliest bikes ever made, they looked like they were made in a basement
> > > by a drunk in a hurry.
>
> > I had one of those. A metallic sea-foam green one (Built up with
> > Ofmega Mistral, Nisi Laser, Concor, Modolo, and white Looks). When I
> > took it to Italy, the folks there called it *"the pregnant" bike.
>
> It wasn't only the "fat tubes"; the early C'dales had hideous, lumpy
> welds and tubes that were bowed during the heat treating process
> (alignment was kept reasonable by putting the frame in a jig during
> the heat treating, so a frame could be sorta in alignment but still
> have noticeably bowed tubes). There were other issues, as well. By
> ~1986, the welds, at least, looked better.
>
>
>
> > I think the later models slimmed down a bit, and other bikes widened,
> > so they don't seem so huge now, but back in the day it was like a bike
> > from space.
>
> As fatter tubes became the norm, the early C'dales no longer stood
> out.
>
> I had forgotten just how really ugly the early C'dale production was
> until about 4-5 years ago, when I came across a guy riding an '83
> ST500, their first production bike. "Ewwww", indeed!

I had one, and it rode better than my custom steel frame and weighed
a pound less. In a 63cm frame, the big tubes gave it a nice
proportionality. I broke the derailleur hanger in a freak accident
and replaced the frame free on warranty with a spiffy Black Lightening
frame that I raced and rode for twenty years until it fell apart.
Compared to current production Al frames, those things were bomb
proof. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie

On Feb 5, 5:45*pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> > What I take away from the press release is that Pacific Cycles will
> > continue with its low-end bikes through high volume dealers, and
> > Cannondale will continue in its current niche selling higher quality
> > bikes through LBS.
>
> I think we can expect a major expansion of Cannondale's recent
> practice of having some of its frames manufactured overseas. *An
> aluminum Cannondale used to be a qualitatively different thing than an
> aluminum Trek, Giant, Redline, etc. *That's probably going to
> change.

Not according to the full news release, and even if they do move more
production to Asia, that would be in keeping with all of the
manufacturers including Trek, at least its low end products.


> It didn't make sense for them to do it to Mongoose, GT, or worst of
> all, Schwinn. *But they did. *I think their track record speaks louder
> than their press release about where this is all going.

Schwinn was never a premium brand. It was always a plumbing pipe,
boat anchor brand that sold through its own stores until the company
was driven in to the ground by feuding family members and competition
ffrom overseas -- and then sold three (or four) times out of various
bankruptcies. We may have all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings about
Paramounts, but those were the wall ornaments at the local Schwinn
shop and not typical of the usual Schwinn production. I think that
the current Asian Schwinns put out by Pacific are better than any
Varsity I ever rode. And Dorel says in its press release that it is
going to fluff up the GT brand and make that part of its top tier LBS
offerings.


> If Dorel/Pacific think it is better for the bottom line to keep the
> Cannondale brand exclusive to the LBS market, then they will. *If they
> think it will be more profitable for the brand to be retailed through
> nationwide sporting goods chain stores, they'll do that. *And have no
> doubt-- if they think there's more money in selling $150 "Cannondales"
> at Wally World, they will do that.

True, business is business -- but why would someone want to compete at
the lowest end of the market with narrowest margins? That does not
make sense. Dorel already has brands in that market, and it looks to
be following the usual course of purchasing a premium brand in an
effort to increase its margins. This is a very common way to go.
Ford owns Jag, Volvo and Land Rover and maintains those brands.
Harman owns Mark Levinson and maintains that brand. There are many
other examples.

>
> What I would not count on in any case is for the new owners to
> continue to uphold the few quality distinctions Cannondale has managed
> to retain-- or USA frame production, for that matter.
>

You may be right, but with the current state of the dollar, it may not
make sense to move production of Al frames overseas immediately. It
is the rare American manufacturer that has kept production here, and I
don't think there is any guaranty that even the most traditionally
Amereican of manufacturers will keep its production here, sad to
say.-- Jay Beattie.

Mike Jacoubowsky

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
news:38djq3pn0ouej9d8kbkt8aknruhm14rd4v@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 07:01:20 -0600, Tom Sherman
> <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome.
>
> Anywhere? For anyone? For any purpose?
>
> Wow.

There was a time when very narrow tires were the norm. I rode them myself.
And geez, did they knock you around. I'm not sure what we were trying to get
with those tires, but there were a lot of them out there. 18c even in some
cases.

For aerodynamic reasons, it's best to have a tire that matches the width of
the rim. US Postal was very big on this. Rims at the time were fairly
narrow, and they *could* have chosen to go with a narrower tire to match the
rim they were provided with (by Trek). But instead they asked (ok, demanded)
for wider rims to match their 22-23c tubulars.

Saying 19mm tires have no purpose anywhere but a velodrome isn't true, but
they certainly don't serve the purpose most think (delivering greater
efficiency on normal roads). The OP was probably just reacting to that
still-very-large group of people who think narrower always equals faster.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Ozark Bicycle

On Feb 6, 11:04*am, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 3:59*am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 6, 1:58*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 6, 3:12*am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > I guesss you don't recall the early (1983-84) C'dales, eh? Some of the
> > > > ugliest bikes ever made, they looked like they were made in a basement
> > > > by a drunk in a hurry.
>
> > > I had one of those. A metallic sea-foam green one (Built up with
> > > Ofmega Mistral, Nisi Laser, Concor, Modolo, and white Looks). When I
> > > took it to Italy, the folks there called it *"the pregnant" bike.
>
> > It wasn't only the "fat tubes"; the early C'dales had hideous, lumpy
> > welds and tubes that were bowed during the heat treating process
> > (alignment was kept reasonable by putting the frame in a jig during
> > the heat treating, so a frame could be sorta in alignment but still
> > have noticeably bowed tubes). There were other issues, as well. By
> > ~1986, the welds, at least, looked better.
>
> > > I think the later models slimmed down a bit, and other bikes widened,
> > > so they don't seem so huge now, but back in the day it was like a bike
> > > from space.
>
> > As fatter tubes became the norm, the early C'dales no longer stood
> > out.
>
> > I had forgotten just how really ugly the early C'dale production was
> > until about 4-5 years ago, when I came across a guy riding an '83
> > ST500, their first production bike. "Ewwww", indeed!
>
> *I had one, and it rode better than my custom steel frame and weighed
> a pound less. *In a 63cm frame, the big tubes gave it a nice
> proportionality. *I broke the derailleur hanger in a freak accident
> and replaced the frame free on warranty with a spiffy Black Lightening
> frame that I raced and rode for twenty years until it fell apart.

Agreed, the early C'dales had some merits. But, the early production,
with the bowed tubes and laughably lumpy welds, were very, very ugly.

> Compared to current production Al frames, those things were bomb
> proof.


Such frames are still available, but not from Cannondale. And, they
are quite inexpensive, too.

landotter

On Feb 6, 12:21 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in messagenews:38djq3pn0ouej9d8kbkt8aknruhm14rd4v@4ax.com...
>
> > On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 07:01:20 -0600, Tom Sherman
> > <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >>19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome.
>
> > Anywhere? For anyone? For any purpose?
>
> > Wow.
>
> There was a time when very narrow tires were the norm. I rode them myself.
> And geez, did they knock you around. I'm not sure what we were trying to get
> with those tires, but there were a lot of them out there. 18c even in some
> cases.

I've seen Fasgrip 19s on a couple of basement fresh early 80s bikes.
They ride very nicely. I'd hate to encounter broken pavement with
them.

Chalo

Ozark Bicycle
>
> I had forgotten just how really ugly the early C'dale production was
> until about 4-5 years ago, when I came across a guy riding an '83
> ST500, their first production bike. "Ewwww", indeed!

I have a mid-'80s ST500; I think it's an '85. It must be from after
they sorted out their manufacturing issues, because it's a perfectly
nice-looking bike. It even looks slender and classic compared to my
'90s Cannondales.

I have noticed that the late '80s and early '90s seems to have been
the sweet spot for Cannondale's weld finish quality. Recent C'dale
frames have their welds smoothed down, but not filleted into the
adjoining tubes like they were before. The new way is probably just
as strong and easier to keep from undercutting the tubing, but it sure
doesn't look as nice.

Chalo

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Feb 6, 2:01 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:> ...
> > I had ridiculously narrow Avocet Fasgrip 19's too. The 80's was one of
> > those transition periods where things looked particularly Frankenstein
> > as old blended with new.
>
> 19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome. At any
> pressure that can be used on real roads, a 23 mm tire will have lower
> combined rolling and aerodynamic resistance than anything narrower
> (assuming similar casing and tread), even at the speeds professionals ride.
>

I was 15 then and I guess I weighed about 195lbs. I used clear
polyurethane tubes. The Nisi Laser rims were very narrow with an aero-
like trapezoidal section. I don't recall pinch flats being a problem.

Joseph

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Feb 6, 7:33*pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 12:21 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in messagenews:38djq3pn0ouej9d8kbkt8aknruhm14rd4v@4ax.com...
>
> > > On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 07:01:20 -0600, Tom Sherman
> > > <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>19 mm is a silly width for a tire anywhere but the velodrome.
>
> > > Anywhere? For anyone? For any purpose?
>
> > > Wow.
>
> > There was a time when very narrow tires were the norm. I rode them myself.
> > And geez, did they knock you around. I'm not sure what we were trying toget
> > with those tires, but there were a lot of them out there. 18c even in some
> > cases.
>
> I've seen Fasgrip 19s on a couple of basement fresh early 80s bikes.
> They ride very nicely. I'd hate to encounter broken pavement with
> them.

NYC in the 80's sure didn't have mirror smooth asphalt everywhere, but
the bike and tires served me well. My next bike was a steel Tommasini
with Vittoria CX Seta tubulars. That was quite a different ride!

Joseph

Chalo

Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
[re: Wal-marketing the Cannondale brand]
> > It didn't make sense for them to do it to Mongoose, GT, or worst of
> > all, Schwinn. But they did. I think their track record speaks louder
> > than their press release about where this is all going.
>
> Schwinn was never a premium brand. It was always a plumbing pipe,
> boat anchor brand that sold through its own stores until the company
> was driven in to the ground by feuding family members and competition
> ffrom overseas -- and then sold three (or four) times out of various
> bankruptcies. We may have all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings about
> Paramounts, but those were the wall ornaments at the local Schwinn
> shop and not typical of the usual Schwinn production. I think that
> the current Asian Schwinns put out by Pacific are better than any
> Varsity I ever rode.

Schwinn was a quality-conscious brand by the standards of the day.
Their bikes looked better and held up better than others in the same
price categories. Those Electro-Forged Schwinns are still around in
great numbers. Their competition? Not so much.

On top of that, Schwinn enjoyed a wide reputation for quality, out of
proportion to the observable quality of their production. This must
have been due in part to their lifetime warranty, and to their astute
cultivation of brand mystique (comparable to what Gazelle of the
Netherlands exhibits today). But it would be inaccurate to say that
there was nothing about Schwinns to uphold their good reputation.

It would be accurate, however, to say that there is nothing about
_today's_ Pacific/Schwinns to uphold whatever shreds of esteem they
might have among the buying public.

> And Dorel says in its press release that it is
> going to fluff up the GT brand and make that part of its top tier LBS
> offerings.

We'll see. That would be inconsistent with their business practices
up to now.

> > And have no
> > doubt-- if they think there's more money in selling $150 "Cannondales"
> > at Wally World, they will do that.
>
> True, business is business -- but why would someone want to compete at
> the lowest end of the market with narrowest margins? That does not
> make sense. Dorel already has brands in that market, and it looks to
> be following the usual course of purchasing a premium brand in an
> effort to increase its margins.

Taking a $100 Pacific, slapping on a Cannondale decal and selling it
for $150 is a nice way to get a better margin. That appears to be
exactly what they did with the Schwinn brand. It also appears to be
why all those Wal-bikes are branded Schwinn and Mongoose instead of
Murray, which is another Dorel brand.

> This is a very common way to go.
> Ford owns Jag, Volvo and Land Rover and maintains those brands.
> Harman owns Mark Levinson and maintains that brand. There are many
> other examples.

I wouldn't rule out the likelihood that Dorel/Pacific feel they have
liquidated most of the residual honor out of the Mongoose and Schwinn
names, and now they need another well-respected name to wring the
juice out of.

Ford understands the same principle in its way-- that seems to be why
they keep switching the names of their most miserable cars as people
come to understand what those names indicate. The Fiesta became the
Festiva, and then the Aspire. The Tempo became the Contour. Those
cars had to acquire new names in an attempt to outrun their
overwhelming suckiness. Evidently changing a car's name is an easier
thing for Ford to do than making a car that doesn't suck.

I have seen enough Jags that are obviously reskinned Tauruses to know
that Ford is in the process of doing to that formerly esteemed brand
what Pacific did to Schwinn (and may soon do to Cannondale).

Chalo

JD

On Feb 5, 3:41 pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 6:13 pm, MattB <somedud...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Scott Gordo wrote:
> > > Never been big into Cannondales, but no company deserves this:
>
> > > "Cannondale announces acquisition by Dorel Industries, Ltd.
>
> > > Cannondale announced that it has been acquired by Dorel Industries,
> > > Ltd., a Montreal, Canada-based 'global consumer products company' with
> > > US$1.8B in total sales last year. Dorel purchased Cannondale from a
> > > division of Pegasus Capital Advisors for a reported US$190-200M in
> > > cash but the final value of the transaction will be determined pending
> > > the report of Cannondale's annual earnings ending June 30, 2008. Also
> > > included in the sale is Canada-based cycling, running, and triathlon
> > > clothing manufacturer Sugoi Performance Apparel.
>
> > > Dorel adds Cannondale to its impressive portfolio of bicycle holdings
> > > which already includes Pacific Cycle, parent company of the GT,
> > > Mongoose, and Schwinn brand names. With this most recent acquisition,
> > > Dorel will now reorganize its so-called Recreational/Leisure segment
> > > into two distinct bicycle divisions: one to specifically address the
> > > needs of the independent bicycle dealer (IBD) channel and the other
> > > dealing exclusively with mass market, or 'big box', outlets such as
> > > Wal-Mart....":
>
> > > Rest of article athttp://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/news/02-05.
>
> > > Scott
>
> > A fate worse than death. "To the PAIN!"
>
> > Matt- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Seriously. I've never owned a Cdale nor swooned over one, but, man,
> this news made me throw up in my mouth a little. We have entered the
> age of the Wallondale.
>
> /s


Why the hell do you think I have been touting boutique builders for so
long? The writing has been on the wall for years and is getting even
bigger. Support the little guys because that's the only place we'll
get true quality anymore.

JD

Jay Beattie

On Feb 6, 4:11*pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> > Chalo wrote:
>
> [re: Wal-marketing the Cannondale brand]
>
> > > It didn't make sense for them to do it to Mongoose, GT, or worst of
> > > all, Schwinn. *But they did. *I think their track record speaks louder
> > > than their press release about where this is all going.
>
> > Schwinn was never a premium brand. *It was always a plumbing pipe,
> > boat anchor brand that sold through its own stores until the company
> > was driven in to the ground by feuding family members and competition
> > ffrom overseas -- and then sold three (or four) times out of various
> > bankruptcies. We may have all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings about
> > Paramounts, but those were the wall ornaments at the local Schwinn
> > shop and not typical of the usual Schwinn production. * I think that
> > the current Asian Schwinns put out by Pacific are better than any
> > Varsity I ever rode.
>
> Schwinn was a quality-conscious brand by the standards of the day.
> Their bikes looked better and held up better than others in the same
> price categories. *Those Electro-Forged Schwinns are still around in
> great numbers. *Their competition? *Not so much.
>
> On top of that, Schwinn enjoyed a wide reputation for quality, out of
> proportion to the observable quality of their production. *This must
> have been due in part to their lifetime warranty, and to their astute
> cultivation of brand mystique (comparable to what Gazelle of the
> Netherlands exhibits today). *But it would be inaccurate to say that
> there was nothing about Schwinns to uphold their good reputation.
>
> It would be accurate, however, to say that there is nothing about
> _today's_ Pacific/Schwinns to uphold whatever shreds of esteem they
> might have among the buying public.
>
> > And Dorel says in its press release that it is
> > going to fluff up the GT brand and make that part of its top tier LBS
> > offerings.
>
> We'll see. *That would be inconsistent with their business practices
> up to now.
>
> > > And have no
> > > doubt-- if they think there's more money in selling $150 "Cannondales"
> > > at Wally World, they will do that.
>
> > True, business is business -- but why would someone want to compete at
> > the lowest end of the market with narrowest margins? *That does not
> > make sense. *Dorel already has brands in that market, and it looks to
> > be following the usual course of purchasing a premium brand in an
> > effort to increase its margins.
>
> Taking a $100 Pacific, slapping on a Cannondale decal and selling it
> for $150 is a nice way to get a better margin. *That appears to be
> exactly what they did with the Schwinn brand. *It also appears to be
> why all those Wal-bikes are branded Schwinn and Mongoose instead of
> Murray, which is another Dorel brand.
>
> > This is a very common way to go.
> > Ford owns Jag, Volvo and Land Rover *and maintains those brands.
> > Harman owns Mark Levinson and maintains that brand. There are many
> > other examples.
>
> I wouldn't rule out the likelihood that Dorel/Pacific feel they have
> liquidated most of the residual honor out of the Mongoose and Schwinn
> names, and now they need another well-respected name to wring the
> juice out of.
>
> Ford understands the same principle in its way-- that seems to be why
> they keep switching the names of their most miserable cars as people
> come to understand what those names indicate. *The Fiesta became the
> Festiva, and then the Aspire. *The Tempo became the Contour. *Those
> cars had to acquire new names in an attempt to outrun their
> overwhelming suckiness. *Evidently changing a car's name is an easier
> thing for Ford to do than making a car that doesn't suck.
>
> I have seen enough Jags that are obviously reskinned Tauruses to know
> that Ford is in the process of doing to that formerly esteemed brand
> what Pacific did to Schwinn (and may soon do to Cannondale).

Some people see the Fordification of Jag as a good thing -- a sleek
exterior, decent wiring and no oil leaks!

I know what you are saying about Schwinn, but that brand was already
beaten down before it was bought at fire sale by Pacific. There was
nothing left of it except the goodwill of baby-boomers who had warm
and fuzzy feelings about their first boat anchor bikes. Even before
the first bankrupcy, Schwinn was outsourcing to Japan and was
struggling to hold on to its market. It's dealer network was falling
apart, and people were looking for lighter imports -- including me. I
dumped my Varsity for a Gitane in '69 -- which cost the same as a
Varsity. Schwinn was shorthand for clunker after that. My Gitane
would still be around had it not been stolen.

But I won't pick nits. You could be right. We'll have to check
Walmart in a year to see if Dorel remains true to its PR. -- Jay
Beattie.

PS -- check out some of the current offernings from Schwinn including
the Madison. There are some pretty neat bikes -- and many are not
cheap (pricewise -- I cannot vouch for build quality).

Michael Press

In article
<a6291a09-7cc6-436f-bd0d-eedeb647536d@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have seen enough Jags that are obviously reskinned Tauruses to know
> that Ford is in the process of doing to that formerly esteemed brand
> what Pacific did to Schwinn (and may soon do to Cannondale).

What was the big deal with Jaguar automobiles?
They had a good racing team.
They were sought after for their symbolism.
They had mystique and reputation.
I also heard that you needed two,
so one could be in the shop.

--
Michael Press