Indoor Cadence for Climbers

dhk2

Like others here, I've been inspired by Tyson to work harder on FTP via indoor training on the stationary bikes at the local YMCA. Normally I pedal a cadence in the range of 92-95, with some quick accelerations up to 140-150.
However, on a steep climb out on the road with a group this weekend, it occurred to me that for climbing here "high" power is needed at much lower cadence.

EG, on the 15% grade yesterday, was climbing at 4.5-5 mph seated, which I believe requires around 275-300W output for a 200 lb rider+bike. (The hard effort felt about like 275W does on the trainer as well). At this speed, in my (wimpy) 30/25 low gear, cadence is about 50 rpm, well short of the 90-95 that I use for almost all the interval durations.

Many of the club rides here feature 10-20% climbs which really tend to sort out the group, so climbing faster and being able to recover quickly to stay with the pack is a key goal. The obvious question is, should I be doing at least a portion of the indoor interval work at 50 rpm? 275W certainly feels a bit different at 50 rpm than at 100

doctorSpoc

wouldn't the other option be to just get a wider gear ratio with some lower gears so you would be forced to ride at 50 rpms?

frenchyge

FTP is primarily a metabolic phenomenon, rather than a neuromuscular one, but if the steep climbs feel that much more distressing then it might help to mix in some lower cadence reps with hands on the bar tops.

sogood

Deliberate grinding of your knee joint cartilages is not training but torture. Don't see too much value in it. If there are many such grades in your ride that requires a cadence of 50, maybe it's smarter to consider getting a different cassette while you work to increase your FTP.

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Morphed Bianchi Camaleonte IV 2006, Ridley Damocles 2006, Garmin, Mac

Sillyoldtwit

I don't really understand the issue here. I never intentionally lower the cadence on the trainer, however, when the going really gets tough my cadence involuntarily slows down; the same as if I were negotiating a steep climb.
Out on the road I used to climb most climbs over 9% say, in the lowest gear (high cadence) to make life easier. Then I came to realise I could get up faster by going up a peg or 2.(lower cadence) In other words I select a gear befitting the perceived power I'm generating irrespective of the cadence. I say perceived because as yet I don't have a power meter, but I don't think I'm too far out.
I think, yet others may correct me here, it's something you have to play with until you get it right. Too low a gear or too high a gear and you adversely affect your climbing speed.
But personally I wouldn't train employing a lower cadence and by the same token I wouldn't feel upset because I couldn't achieve a cadence of 90+.
Since getting the CompTrainer, I've found once I get above 260W a cadence of 85 is natural for me. Probably down to age! Tyson

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swampy1970

Instead of working out on an indoor stationary bike maybe you could go out on the road and work on riding out of the saddle in a higher gear going up hill. I'm not sure if that is an option for you, especially in winter.

I don't really see a problem with increasing the load and reducing the revs. The East Germans and the Russians used to do it all the time, the Aussies too (under Charlie Walsh I think) I'm sure Stuart OGrady loved those hours of 53x12 going uphill in the saddle. Ulrich apparently did that too. Big gears are bad per se - it's just that letting the form get sloppy and trying to do too much too soon tends to lead to problems.

High revs seem to be the holy grail these days - but having legs whirl around like propellers isn't always the best for everyone. It certainly didn't stop the likes of Pantani, Herrera, Millar and Bugno going up hill quick....

sogood

Yes, and suffered from severe depression and death by cocaine overdose. Ummm...

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Morphed Bianchi Camaleonte IV 2006, Ridley Damocles 2006, Garmin, Mac

doctorSpoc

he said he was dipping down to 50rpms.. he didn' say 80rpms. basically if you are doing 50rpms it's because you are over geared... your problem is not that you need to get used to doing 50rpms, your problem is that you need to buy a new cassette with some lower gears in it or compact crank or a triple or something... if you are doing 50rpms you are going up slower than you could...

also to others... i've seen ullrich do around 85rpms which is considered slow... i've never seen him ride with a cadence of 50... just no way around it, if you catch yourself doing 50rpms it's because you don't have, or have chosen the wrong gear for the task at hand and you are going slower than you could.

frenchyge

He also said he was going up a 15% grade in a 30x25 gear. So, what it is you (guys) are (all) suggesting that he do with his gearing?

To get his 50rpm up to 80 he'd need a 30x55 gear combination, which is not one I'm familiar with.

dhk2

docspoc: Yes, lower gearing is always an option, but it's a trade-off. With the 9 speed triple and 12/25, I'm about as low as it goes on a road set up. Going to an MTB gearing isn't a compromise I'm willing to make. Besides, it's not like I have to get off and walk: standing in 30/25 gets me over the steeps walls when needed.

frenchgyge: Excellent point you've made. In that case, don't doubt that as FTP increases at 90 rpm, it will increase at 50 rpm as well. But you did say "primarily". Suppose the more precise question then becomes: Will I see more specific increase in FTP at 50-60 rpm by doing some portion of training at these low rpm?

sogood: Knees have never really given me a problem, but your point is well-taken. The 50-60 rpm climbing is typically only perhaps 10-20 minutes out of a 3 hour ride, and the rest of the time I do try to keep cadence up. Agree getting the FTP up and the weight down is the way to do it, but to sustain 400-500W (needed to spin at 80-90 rpm) for 10 minutes on a 15% grade, and then recover in the middle of a long ride is a bit beyond even my wildest dreams

Tyson, the issue is that I want to be able to generate more sustained power for steep climbs (go up faster), but this often requires pedaling at less than optimum cadence. My cadence also slows a lot on 9% grades, but if it's not a short "momentum" hill, I'll normally shift down early and climb in my lowest gear. With the triple, shifting up from 25-23-21 is easy if the grade allows.

swampy: Agree just getting out and climbing more is probably the most specific and best way to train for hill performance. Steep hills are certainly close by, and winter weather is often fine for riding here. But I've been doing more work on the indoor trainer now, and just wondered if it's worth specifically targeting the cadence ranges I use on steep climbs on the trainer.

Appreciate all the replies. The climb just got me thinking that perhaps training at a "normal" cadence all the time isn't the best way. I plan to check out the "hill programs" on the trainer tomorrow and see what kind of power I can sustain at 50-60 rpm for a 10 minute "climb". If I get any revelations, or just blinding flashes of the obvious, will pass them along.

frenchyge

As I interpret your question, I'd say the answer is probably 'yes.' That is, I don't think lower cadence intervals are really the best way to improve your FTP (ie, maximal 1-hr power under ideal conditions), but that they would probably help improve the power you can sustain at 50-60 rpm. By 'primarily', I mean that the biggest improvements in FTP are going to be through metabolic adaptations, with NM adaptations being much smaller.

Personally, I find that stomping up a steep hill in the saddle works the lower back, hips and glutes more than typical trainer riding (or riding on the flats). I think that some force-cadence-position specific intervals of that type would give some added benefit if that was a key factor in your rides.

doctorSpoc

yup, point taken... i'm guilty of not reading the post carefully and missed the actual gearing you were using.

but if i was your coach i would tell you that in the very sort term doing some of these intervals may help you a little on these climbs.. i might even limit them to 5min intervals... i find that climbs under 10min improving anCap can be mitigating a bit so so doing some of that might be advantageous... but longer than about 10mins and your low FTP gets exposed. but in the long run (even the medium run) the way to get up those hill faster and in a reasonable gear is to increase your FTP and lose weight and doing these hill workouts (i know group rides are fun but...) and doing the the 50rpm workouts on the trainer inside is more than likely not that good workouts for your FTP development at this stage in your development.. your time would be much better spent working on plain old vanilla SST and Th training... i know it's boring but...

sogood

Obviously the 80 cadence number is somewhat arbitrary. The key issue is to get that cadence further up than 50. On regular road bikes, it's not difficult to source a standard commercial cassette that has a 29 cog. At that lowly cadence of 50, every bit helps.

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Morphed Bianchi Camaleonte IV 2006, Ridley Damocles 2006, Garmin, Mac

root

How long are these 15% to 20% climbs? If they are less than 3 to 5 min then you can afford to "brute force" them in bigger gear.

This means you will not be climbing these at your FTP power output but at 120% of your FTP and on moments even higher 150% FTP (just don't blow up).

Going harder like this means the climb ends sooner too since you are going up faster.

If the climbs are long then you need even lower gearing I'm affraid that allows you to stay in your FTP or lower range.

And if that is not possible then you need to avoid those hills .