Page 3 - Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

10-02.-2008, 01:22 PM

#31

chainstay

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 138

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

I bet you would have, it's hard to finish a race of that length without feeding yourself and the neutral feeds were just handing up gatorade and a Gu packet, not nearly enough for that kind of a day. Great job perservering. Don't worry, no scoffing here, you did great.

After I couldn't find my guy at Afton, the second time that had happened with the first time being Preston, I was pretty rattled and made another mistake when I finally gave up looking for him and went to neutral. All I could think about was my group bearing down on me and my Salt River Pass attack going for nothing. LOL. At the neutral booth I failed to calm down and focus on trying to get what I needed. I ate half a banana on the spot, but then just threw a Cliff Bar in my pocket, grabbed a Gatorade bottle, jumped on my bike and left. I didn't even see the gels---which would not have been nearly as good as the liquid food I prepared for my guy to have ready for me, but a lot better than an unusable Cliff Bar. At 126 miles in to a ride and going hard on a bike, I can't chew and swallow Cliff bars. I knew that from experience, but I just wasn't thinking clearly. And sure enough, I could never choke that baby down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

11th place doesn't sound all that great,

It sounds great to me. Your division dominated the entire race, including the Cat 1,2s. Congratulations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

Late race bonk wasn't a problem and my average power for hour 9 was greater than hour 1 so I don't think endurance was an issue.

Thanks for regularly sharing your training insights on this board.

Last edited by chainstay : 10-02.-2008 at 03:40 PM.

10-02.-2008, 08:56 PM

#32

swampy1970

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 387

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by LT Intolerant

This is a follow up question to a thread I sort of hijacked on building CTL.

I'm preparing for an ultra event (ultra in my mind) that is 112 miles w 12k feet of climbing.

Using the calculator on kreuzotter I've estimated that the event will take me roughly 7:30 hours plus and I'll burn 5,600 calories at an NP at of 220 watts (an L2 ride for me given my FTP).

Twice a week I do long rides (1/2 w a group and 1/2 by myself) where I put in roughly 75 miles and burn roughly 2,700 calories. I plan to crank these up to 100 +miles 2x per week to get ready for the demands of this event.

gene r

I deleted a lot of the quote for clarity and I'll remove the FTP, CTL, L3, L4, L12323, headshrinker horseshit from the equation just to make it easy.

"Seven hours can your butt sit and climb?" Yoda.

Simply put, you have a lot of climbing condensed into a short time frame. Go find some hills and get used to climbing for 7 hours. I don't mean going for a ride for seven hours in the hills, I mean go spend 7 hours climbing. Hills put stress on the legs and lower back in a way that riding on the flat or trainer will ever do.

From past rides on The Deathride, I can say that altitude is not to be underestimated - if you're spending a significant amount of time over 5000ft then be prepared to ride slower and consume more fluids. Gear lower than you'd expect - there's no "man awards" for having 42x23 as the bottom gear. If you can comforably climb a 3 mile 10% grade in 42x23 at sea level, tag on a few extra sprockets and lower the chainring by a few for altitude - say 39x25 or 39x27. Your milage may vary... proceed with caution. I don't know how strong you are. If your final climb is 5 miles of 20% then consider something much lower. LOL. Wear sunscreen at the higher elevations too... factor 6,000,000 should do nicely. LOL

Arnie Baker has a wonderful .pdf on the "fun" that can be had for riding at altitude in his training guide for The Deathride. Its available for a small fee from his website. To be honest, for flatlanders like me (pasty white boy from England), it's worth every penny.....

Last edited by swampy1970 : 10-02.-2008 at 09:04 PM.

16-04.-2008, 02:48 PM	#33
LT Intolerant Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 86	Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event The Mullholland Challenge (112 miles w 12k of climbing) was this past weekend, so here's a post-event update... First leading up to the event I chose NOT to train ultra-distances. Instead I put in a steady diet of... 2-3.5hour SST (L3 & low level L4) rides 2-3 times/week w lots of climbing (4-6k ft in 30-40 miles) complemented by 2-3 Endo (L2/3) rides per week that lasted 2-3 hours with 1 Active Recovery ride. I avoided group rides for the most part and high intensity interval sessions > L4. My CTL peaked at 103 two weeks before the event and was 95 the day of the event w a TSB of 25, higher than I wanted it to be but work forced me to taper more than I wanted to. Unfortunately the MC was brutal, not because of the distance, but rather because of the heat. It was unseasonably hot (>100 degrees F) and I along with many others suffered. I was good up until mile 85 when my body shut down. The last big climb should have taken me 1/2 hour but took me 1.25 hours w multiple stops, and I had to stop at the top, take some aid, or I was heading to the ER. I made it to the finish in a time of 8:45 mins w a ride time of 7:45. Most that I talked with who had done the event before said that they were between 30 mins to 1 hour faster the year before. Under normal conditions I think I could have easily hit my target of 7:30 to complete the ride. In the end I think my approach worked, as I could have easily handled the distance, and the climbing, had the temps been at their normal levels. Unfortunately where I live we rarely get above 85, so I just wasn't able to handle the weather, but I've always struggled in extreme heat. Just another note along the way I did the Solvang Century (ridden as a race by the locals here in S Barbara) and finished in roughly 4.75 hours, faster than last year. I also made the break and got a decent result at Copperopolis, one of the tougher RRs in NCal. I was surprised by that result because as I said before I did almost no training at high intensity and very few group rides. I guess this SST stuff does work. So thanks to Dave R for some sage advice.

19-06.-2008, 02:01 PM

#34

bigbadwoulfe

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007

Posts: 39

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by LT Intolerant

The Mullholland Challenge (112 miles w 12k of climbing) was this past weekend, so here's a post-event update...

First leading up to the event I chose NOT to train ultra-distances. Instead I put in a steady diet of...

2-3.5hour SST (L3 & low level L4) rides 2-3 times/week w lots of climbing (4-6k ft in 30-40 miles)
complemented by 2-3 Endo (L2/3) rides per week that lasted 2-3 hours
with 1 Active Recovery ride.

I avoided group rides for the most part and high intensity interval sessions > L4. My CTL peaked at 103 two weeks before the event and was 95 the day of the event w a TSB of 25, higher than I wanted it to be but work forced me to taper more than I wanted to.

Unfortunately the MC was brutal, not because of the distance, but rather because of the heat. It was unseasonably hot (>100 degrees F) and I along with many others suffered.

I was good up until mile 85 when my body shut down. The last big climb should have taken me 1/2 hour but took me 1.25 hours w multiple stops, and I had to stop at the top, take some aid, or I was heading to the ER. I made it to the finish in a time of 8:45 mins w a ride time of 7:45.

Most that I talked with who had done the event before said that they were between 30 mins to 1 hour faster the year before. Under normal conditions I think I could have easily hit my target of 7:30 to complete the ride.

In the end I think my approach worked, as I could have easily handled the distance, and the climbing, had the temps been at their normal levels. Unfortunately where I live we rarely get above 85, so I just wasn't able to handle the weather, but I've always struggled in extreme heat.

Just another note along the way I did the Solvang Century (ridden as a race by the locals here in S Barbara) and finished in roughly 4.75 hours, faster than last year.

I also made the break and got a decent result at Copperopolis, one of the tougher RRs in NCal. I was surprised by that result because as I said before I did almost no training at high intensity and very few group rides. I guess this SST stuff does work.

So thanks to Dave R for some sage advice.

So you followed his advice afterall. Good for you. Congratulations on the other races.

20-06.-2008, 10:59 AM

#35

komwannabe

Registered User

Join Date: May 2007

Posts: 9

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

I hadn't expected much on the conventional wisdom that I hadn't trained anything nearly that long and definitely exceeded my expectations. 11th place doesn't sound all that great, but not bad considering the first two places in our group went to course record setters who caught and rode away from the 1/2s field and I'd broken my personal goal of 10 hours by nearly 20 minutes. If I was lacking, it was the power necessary to stay with the leaders in Strawberry Canyon only a couple of hours into the race. Late race bonk wasn't a problem and my average power for hour 9 was greater than hour 1 so I don't think endurance was an issue.

-Dave

Dave,

This has been a very interesting read for me. Thanks again for your great posts on this board.

You had a great Lotoja. Congratulations.

Speaking of conventional wisdom and ultra events, I got a spot for Lotoja this year (Masters 45+ Category), but work and some other circumstances will limit my training time and I won't be able to put in a bunch of saddle time and mileage for build up if I actually follow through and go. I don't focus on ultra events, although I get a couple centuries per year and do the usual seasonal racing and competitive local group hammerfests.

It seems like the most I will be able to muster will be between 8-12 hours per week of training time for the next couple of months. I have my trusty SRM, and your posts and others on this board, saved me this past winter by helping me ignore the conventional winter approach and by focusing my limited winter training time on L3, SST and L4 work. As a result, I've had the best spring/early summer on the bike and seen some good improvement.

My question now is... Based on your experience last year with your training and Lotoja... Do you think I could use the limited training time I have with judicious use of SST and L4, and still do Lotoja without it just being an enormous sufferfest? My CTL has been hovering during the past couple of months at 70-80 and my weekly TSS is around 450-700. I'd much appreciate your thoughts. Until I saw your post, I had pretty much given up on the idea of going to Lotoja this year. Now I'm wondering if it couldn't still be feasible somehow.

Thanks.

20-06.-2008, 12:40 PM

#36

LT Intolerant

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 86

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbadwoulfe

So you followed his advice afterall. Good for you. Congratulations on the other races.

Thanks BBW. Sometimes I need a good whack upside the head and the members of this forum can often provide that. Iin a nice way of course.

20-06.-2008, 01:52 PM

#37

komwannabe

Registered User

Join Date: May 2007

Posts: 9

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by LT Intolerant

Thanks BBW. Sometimes I need a good whack upside the head and the members of this forum can often provide that. Iin a nice way of course.

Nice job with the MC. The heat has been brutal lately and I'm sure that was a big factor. Solvang at 4.75 is really nice too. Thanks for letting us know your training set up and how it went. Do you think that training and a build to that CTL would have carried you in decent form through a double century with plenty of climbing? I know it might be just a guess, but I'd be interested in your opinion. Thanks.

21-06.-2008, 11:33 AM

#38

LT Intolerant

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 86

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by komwannabe

Thanks KOM. The heat WAS brutal that day, and I think I had a near-death experience in the last 2 hours of the MC.

I think building on that CTL, and at the same time lowering IF for a double, would allow me to get through a it w lots of climbing. I also think adding a one or two rides prior to the double thatt approximate roughly 75% of the TSS I would experience wouldn't hurt, especially psychologically.

The above is just a guesss, and certainly you would be better served getting real insight from others that have done doubles.

23-06.-2008, 02:08 PM

#39

Watoni

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2004

Posts: 71

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by komwannabe

I think that would have worked just fine.
My first century/double century was Devil Mountain (Norcal) in 2002. I was skinny and did a lot of SST-like climbing but had never ridden more than 100 miles and finished just fine.

To finish very strong some good CTL is very helpful. DCs are major endurance events and the most important thing is being a fit rider who has the ability to sit and replenish for that long.

Long story short, I rode the first half of the Terrible Two yesterday, a ride I have finished three times and never sagged into before. It was well over 100 for most of the ride, but what killed me was my shoes. I had new custom shoes this year, but I still ended up with excruciating pain and having to take the shoes off a few times in the first 109 miles. I finished last year but with taking off the shoes every hour for 10 minutes during the second half, and that just sucked and obviously kills your time.

With a CTL of about 45 I rode the first 109 miles (with about 7,000 feet of climbing) in 6.5 hours of riding (the remaining 50 minutes were taken up with two flats on brand new tires and shoe issues :mad

, and finished very strong in 2005 with just a steady diet of SST.

Now off for new shoe solutions (sports medicine clinic, Esoles, mid arch cleat placement, whatever)

25-06.-2008, 01:33 AM	#40
ruleof72 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 33	Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event This thread has been a good read. I am very interested in training for longer events and am wondering if I can get some feedback on my situation. I am planning on doing the Six Gap Century at the end of September. For those of you not familiar with the ride it is 100 miles in the N. Georgia Mtns with 11k of climbing. I have about 6-8 hours a week to train and I am currently at a CTL of 69 and weekly TSS has been hovering around 500-600. I have been riding 5 days/week with Sunday being the long ride of 60+ miles at the high L2-low L3 range. The other rides are about an hour in length and I try to mix it up by doing hills hard, etc. I am doing a century this coming week and plan on doing at least 1 more this Summer. I live w/in an hour of "the gaps" and plan on getting up there once or twice a month to do some of the climbs. I have 3 months until the ride and I want to get some feedback on useful changes, if any, that I can make to the routine in order to improve my odds of finishing this ride strong. Is my CTL high enough or should I try to raise it a bit? What else can I do to help? __________________ "To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift"-Pre Visit my Road Bike Blog

25-06.-2008, 02:07 AM

#41

Felt_Rider

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,199

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruleof72

This thread has been a good read. I am very interested in training for longer events and am wondering if I can get some feedback on my situation.

I am planning on doing the Six Gap Century at the end of September. For those of you not familiar with the ride it is 100 miles in the N. Georgia Mtns with 11k of climbing. I have about 6-8 hours a week to train and I am currently at a CTL of 69 and weekly TSS has been hovering around 500-600. I have been riding 5 days/week with Sunday being the long ride of 60+ miles at the high L2-low L3 range. The other rides are about an hour in length and I try to mix it up by doing hills hard, etc. I am doing a century this coming week and plan on doing at least 1 more this Summer. I live w/in an hour of "the gaps" and plan on getting up there once or twice a month to do some of the climbs.

I have 3 months until the ride and I want to get some feedback on useful changes, if any, that I can make to the routine in order to improve my odds of finishing this ride strong. Is my CTL high enough or should I try to raise it a bit? What else can I do to help?

Looking at your blog and how you recently handled the gaps, I would guess that you will do fine with the 6 Gap, but when you mention finish strong are you intending on trying to hang with those who will be trying to break personal records or just finish strong based on your own pace?

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25-06.-2008, 03:54 AM

#42

ruleof72

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 33

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

Looking at your blog and how you recently handled the gaps, I would guess that you will do fine with the 6 Gap, but when you mention finish strong are you intending on trying to hang with those who will be trying to break personal records or just finish strong based on your own pace?

Thanks for looking

I'm kinda new to the blog thing but I enjoy it. Hopefully I can improve the design of it soon. Your blog is nice as well.

When I say finish strong I guess I am referring to finishing strong based on my own pace. I haven't done the ride before and while I enjoy climbing I must admit that the ride intimidates me a little bit

I did the 3 State 3 Mountain in May, as you did. That was my first century in almost two years and the first one with significant climbing. I did OK, finishing with 6:06 ride time and an avg speed of 16.8 but Burkhalter Gap was tough. I haven't done the back gaps yet (that is on my list to do w/in the next month) so I don't know what to expect from them, especially Hogpen.

I guess I just want to make sure I am as prepared as possible given the time I have.

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25-06.-2008, 05:00 AM

#43

Felt_Rider

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Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,199

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruleof72

Thanks for looking

I will leave the comments for the veterans here on your training load, but from what I have read on your blog and here about finishing times and such, you are comparable to some of the stronger riders in my group that do 6 gap each season.

We normally tackle Hogpen first coming out of Helen and I can't imagine climbing it later in a ride. It is one of the toughest climbs that I have done to this point. If you like climbing you need to get up there and do Hogpen soon.

This link has a good route starting in Helen and heading straight to Hogpen. Not much of a warm up, but it is a good route to get Hogpen done in the cooler part of the day. It then goes to Neels to Jacks to Unicoi and back into Helen.

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25-06.-2008, 03:14 PM	#44
komwannabe Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9	Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event Thanks LTI and Watoni. So, to maybe put it another way, the way to go might be to focus on building CTL with some increasing weekly SST and TSS volume, while not worrying too much about IF. At the same time, mixing in some racing to get some relatively high IF days in the mix occasionally is probably a good idea too. LTI, I'm really impressed with your MC finish in the heat we have had... you have extreme mental toughness dude! Watoni, the Devil Mountain sounds like an awesome ride. Thanks for your take on my question. Let me know how you solve the shoes problem. I have had the same issues with my shoes, even though I have changed shoes and moved cleat position all kinds of ways to no avail. Hey ruleof72... I'd bet you can get that century done pretty well at your training load. If you have some more time for some additional SST work, I would guess that would help. I would read up on some of DaveRyanWyoming posts on SST and L4 work and using limited training time... I think they have been excellent posts and they really saved me over the past winter. They helped me actually increase fitness on very limited training time. I probably had the best spring ever. DaveRW... Any input on my question for the Lotoja perspective? You did so well in it last year! Very well done! I'm still not too confident that my hovering 75 CTL is going to be up to the task in the Masters 45+ licensed 1-4 category.

25-06.-2008, 11:07 PM

#45

ruleof72

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 33

Re: Training (with power) for an Ultra Event

Quote:

Originally Posted by komwannabe

Hey ruleof72... I'd bet you can get that century done pretty well at your training load. If you have some more time for some additional SST work, I would guess that would help. I would read up on some of DaveRyanWyoming posts on SST and L4 work and using limited training time... I think they have been excellent posts and they really saved me over the past winter. They helped me actually increase fitness on very limited training time. I probably had the best spring ever.

Yeah, I think I can finish it OK but I'd like to have some extra fuel in the tank when I get done. I think you are right regarding doing extra SST work. I spent some time last night planning out the next three months, trying to mix in some good climbing workouts with some trainer/SST workouts, all within my max repeatable (based on time available) weekly TSS of 500-600. I think if I can do one day a week in dedicated SST along with one long ride, a couple of shorter solo rides and a group ride I should be fine. Toss in three or four dedicated mountain rides to keep my climbing legs and the Six Gap will be a piece of cake

One thing is or sure, the Powertap is invaluable when climbing or doing any longer event. It really helps me stay in the "hard but not too hard" range. I can push where I need to without blowing up.

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