L5's: what % of FT are you guys hitting?

Ade Merckx

This is my second week of L5's (5 x 5) with an FT of 300wts its looking like 335 335, 335, 325 and 325. Following Dr Andy C's schema I should be looking at 106-120%. I'm sure I've read some people do 115% of FT, I could probably only do 1 or 2 reps at that power output. Is this normal? Is my main inhibiter a weak AC?

jeff828

The range is pretty wide (106-120%) and your about 110%, so just keep at that and eventually you will increase power. Better to nail 5 at little lower %, than push it and only get 2 plus feel spent and unmotorvated. My idea is to keep mentally motorvated so you want to do them again and again. Tried 5x4@115% and cooked myself, now i do them at 110% feel worked but not cooked & I look forward to doing them again.

frenchyge

Yeah, upping your FT's a bitch, ain't it?

I look at ~115% as a minimum target for L5 intervals. I'll shorten them to 4min or do 5 reps instead of 6 if I can't make all 6x5. As JBV mentioned in another thread, look at the projected NP for the entire interval set and tweak the power or work:rest intervals slightly to get the workout NP to match closely with your FTP. If the numbers say you can do it, then you can.

rmur17

Questions:

1. What rest intervals are you taking?
2. How do your L5 workouts fit into your weekly schedule? Really I'm getting at: are you fresh for these workouts?
3. What cadence are you using compared to your normal workouts?

Possibilities:

1. Your KK trainer/computer is not linear in this power range, i.e. what appears to be 110% FTP is actually 115% or (worse) 107% etc.
2. You just haven't done enough of these workouts to get your best out this season. FWIW, I tend to work up from only three intervals to the full six over a few workouts while ensuring intensity is well up there.

Comments:
From my personal integral of {smart people's postings over time} - {memory loss} , my feeling is that L5 work is one area where being soft doesn't cut it. I mean soft as in SST and threshold where pretty clearly it's been shown one can trade off intensity for duration in some fashion and still make good gains. For L5/Vo2, well you'd better ensure you're well "up there" to begin with.

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rmur

dkrenik

I find that, for "classic" ie 6-8 x 5 min L5 work, the intensity (% of FTP) changes as the season goes along. I'm presently doing them on my rollers at ~112-115% FTP. Later in the season I'll do them closer to (or over) 120%. I think that you'll find that this is one of those areas where YMMV.

Dave

wiredued

I can pull off a 5x5 at 114% about 50% of the time.

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john979

For me, 4 minute VO2 max intervals are much more mentally tolerable than 5 minute ones...

vladav

OT: What model rollers? I'm looking to do the same...
Thanks,
DaveG

Ade Merckx

1. 3 minutes
2. Yes I'm fresh always after a break
3. Typical Cadence 92-94, same as for other workouts but one gear higher

I hear the linear argument, I'll keep banging away. Once again cheers fellas

frenchyge

FWIW, 5 reps of 5on-3off at 335w, with a 300w FTP generates a 37 min workout with an approximate* NP of 305w. How does that compare with your best 37min mean-maximal NP?

If you wanted to push the target power up to 345w, then a 4min/3min work/rest or 5min/4min would put you in the 308w ballpark for 30-40minutes total.

* - for simplicity, my spreadsheet uses the 4th-order weighting, but not the 30-sec averaging.

rmur17

good point re the NP and, by inference, an FTP cap on realistic L5 workouts.

If the REAL smart guys were posting here, someone would likely point this out as one reason that so-called reverse periodization may not be ideal. Hmmm .. something like: you're limited by what you've done so far ...

It's what I was getting at with the RI duration question. I know it may not be optimal in terms of pure Vo2max but for generating repeatable L5 intervals at 115%FTP, I always take close to 5-min rest at around 50-55%FTP. Dropping the RI down to the 2.5 min range (which some strongly prefer) and I honestly can't keep the power up. And if I run the calcs, NP tells me why ... I end up bumping against my power-duration curve and IMHO that's not the best way to train L5 (nor FTP ).

One suggestion that may take some of the KK linearity question away, I'd (on a fresh day) do a single maximal test to see my 5MP on that trainer. Then I'd target repeated 5min intervals around 94-96% of that maximum. Given a 4-5min RI, I believe that would work for most people and I hope the trainer is linear enough within a 5% window!

Hmmm ... I remember Timan was the L5 master. Where's he at these days?

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rmur

frenchyge

He caught a lot of flak in a doping discussion a while back, and I haven't seen any posts from him since.

Ade Merckx

Cool I'll take a longer rest and see. I don't have a PM or understand all the CP stuff so you'll lose me if ya get too deep, Best 5min on KK done two months ago was 360watts

rmur17

Taking that at face value: 360W x 95% = 342W but that was two months and your FTP is up 30W in that time, correct?

I'd take a SWAG and say your 5MP is probably around 380-390W now (assuming a linear KK!!!) ... taking 95% of the low end would suggest repeats in the 360W range. 335W is possibly< 90% of max.

Since you're doing these regularly now, it'd be interesting to do one max. effort, see where you are right now and work things out from there.

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rmur