Page 3 - CTL building strategies

20-01.-2008, 02:38 AM

#31

frenchyge

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Kansas City, USA

Posts: 3,689

Re: CTL building strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiredued

Are the PT guys climbing the mountain of knowledge only to find the PE guys at the summit toasting marshmellows?

There are certainly people who have climbed higher on PE alone than I ever will with a PT.

I like to think of the PT as a sherpa who carries the heavy loads and lets me know if I'm still on track. One still has to pay attention to PE if they want to continue the climb, however.

20-01.-2008, 02:55 AM

#32

daveryanwyoming

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Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,505

Re: CTL building strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiredued

Are the PT guys climbing the mountain of knowledge only to find the PE guys at the summit toasting marshmellows?

Yep, that's a good take on it. There have always been folks that figured out how to get fast -- real fast -- without any high tech methods. To paraphrase Andy, this stuff won't make the fast folks faster, but it can provide a more reliable path to race fitness for those that struggle with haphazard training methods.

On a personal level, over the years I've seen an awful lot of bikes without any sort of meters go up the road and leave me behind. But since switching to power based training and SST I'm going with them more often than not

-Dave

20-01.-2008, 04:17 AM

#33

Piotr

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Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: Draper, Utah

Posts: 523

Re: CTL building strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

If I didn't know better I'd say that you just said that power training is for losers (paraphrasing Andy of course)

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20-01.-2008, 06:03 AM

#34

daveryanwyoming

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Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,505

Re: CTL building strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr

If I didn't know better I'd say that you just said that power training is for losers ...

Nope, just folks who don't stumble onto a good training path on their own and would prefer not to follow a bunch of dead ends before finding a method that works for them. IOW, folks who want to reduce the trial and error on the path to winning

21-01.-2008, 04:30 AM

#35

dazman

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Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 66

Re: CTL building strategies

Hi Dave,

Very Useful. I'm very much in the stage of transition from adhoc to a more structured program and this seems like a great way of saving time experimenting. It also addresses something that seems to have been repeated all over the place about the rest weeks... Nice to also see real values to measure how hard others are training!

As for the comments above on PT in general, I struggled for years without a PM to see real improvement. Mow I can measure it and with strategies like this see how to quickly improve it for key events, while keeping my eye on CTL to try avoid sickness. Without it I'm sure I could have improved but the mileage I would have needed for all the adhoc riding wouldn't have left much time for the family...

Cheers,

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

Some recent discussions here and on the Google wattage lists got me thinking about approaches to building training base during winter build cycles. A year ago I was still using a preplanned work/rest cycle ala Friel with 3 training weeks followed by an easier rest week. I abandoned that approach mid winter because I felt I was always playing catchup after that rest week both in terms of regaining training base and having to loosen up my blocked up legs before I could resume decent training. The introduction of the WKO+ Performance Manager and discussions here including some urging by Tom Anhalt(thanks Tom) changed the way I manage training load and how I look at work vs. rest.

I'm in my 12th week of winter training, almost entirely indoors on the trainer again supplemented by some XC ski skating and I decided to compare progress this year vs. a year ago. The attached files are screenshots of my PMC for the first 12 weeks of last season using a preplanned work/rest approach vs. the last 12 weeks using a combination of listening to my body and watching the PMC curves.

All in all I've brought my CTL higher with less effort and haven't had to regain so much lost ground after rest weeks. My CTL ramp is steady and I no longer dig deep holes followed by rest weeks. I'm halfway through indoor winter training(assuming a normal spring, not a given around here) and I'm still psyched to train.

Sure, I still get tired or have off days. But I look at workouts as falling into three general categories:

If the TSS of a workout is substantially above my current CTL it's definitely training and will increase my overall fatigue
If the TSS of a workout is near my current CTL it's maintaining and will usually bring about a bit of a TSB rebound
If the TSS of a workout is substantially below my current CTL it's a "soft" workout and will bring about a bigger TSB rebound and lead to freshness.

IOW, I don't always take days completely off if I'm getting a bit worked. A couple of "soft" days with TSS roughly half of my current CTL even if they're Tempo or low SST rides can lead to freshness and get me ready for more training. These soft days might be half an hour of Tempo riding with a short warmup and cooldown and they generally leave me feeling pretty good. At most a couple of days of these get me ready for more serious training without the blocked up legs of a traditional rest week. Sure I still take days completely off, but not very often and usually when work or family obligations get in the way of training. After all, CTL represents a very long term average training load, roughly what your body has adapted to after 3 or more months of training. It shouldn't be too hard to do a steady base building workout at half that level.

I'm not suggesting this as a year round protocol and expect I'll go back to more conventional rest days when I get outside in the spring and move to higher end workouts. But for base building, especially for those of us stuck indoors on trainers it's an alternative approach to managing training load.

Food for thought,
-Dave

Last edited by dazman : 21-01.-2008 at 04:39 AM.

21-01.-2008, 12:36 PM

#36

wiredued

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 1,172

Re: CTL building strategies

Did any of them publish there methods? I'm not completely intune to PE while cycling but I've had workouts were PE has trumped HR and even power measurements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

There have always been folks that figured out how to get fast -- real fast -- without any high tech methods.

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Last edited by wiredued : 21-01.-2008 at 12:47 PM.

21-01.-2008, 11:51 PM

#37

rmur17

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Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 972

Re: CTL building strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiredued

Did any of them publish there methods? I'm not completely intune to PE while cycling but I've had workouts were PE has trumped HR and even power measurements.

Hmmm ... not criticizing at all ... but could you explain further? Trumped in what way?

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22-01.-2008, 02:21 AM

#38

frenchyge

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Kansas City, USA

Posts: 3,689

Re: CTL building strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiredued

Did any of them publish there methods?

Sure, libraries and bookstores are full of them. Look for titles like "Train like the Pros" or "The Pros can do it, and so can YOU." The problem lies in figuring out whether the pros did it because they're genetically gifted and quit their day jobs to ride their bikes, or whether it was because of the magical nature of their training plans.

Yes, there are some very fast riders who just ride by instinct. There are also some very fast riders who utilize the tools that are available. The fact that those two groups of riders exist doesn't have any bearing on where any individual reading this forum is going to end up, nor which approach is most likely to work best for them.

22-01.-2008, 02:54 AM

#39

wiredued

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Re: CTL building strategies

Lately I have done 3x20s using HR to pace them because I will be doing it that way outdoors in the spring the power is within 10 watts for the three when I'm done. A few weeks ago I decided to change the third interval to a 3x4 on Tuesdays for a maintenance dose of low L5 the first one is more like threshold with a high of 166bpm the next one 168bpm then the last 172bpm or higher if I have any thing left. I think this is starting to effect my Thursday and Staurday normal 3x20 pace on the second interval. If I try to get HR to the level I expect after the first five minutes of the second interval I get the feeling that spikes are being pushed into my legs about 4 inches above the knee more towards the outside so I back off a little and ride that line paying no attention to heart rate or power I think I actually close my eyes and put my head down (this probably won't work outdoors) until I am in the last five minute segment. The last interval paced by HR just like it always does I didn't notice any PE that I could use for pacing but when I was done all the intervals came to 261 watts about 98% FTP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmur17

Hmmm ... not criticizing at all ... but could you explain further? Trumped in what way?

22-01.-2008, 03:21 AM

#40

rmur17

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Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 972

Re: CTL building strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiredued

okay. I used to wear the HRM religiously until a couple of years ago when I worked up to my current training schedule. Before then, I could tell pretty much when I was going to fail on an L4 interval - anything much over 165 bpm or approaching 170 and I was close to failure. Last year I noted in my typical 3d blocks that HR was just too variable. Some intervals it'd get up to 165 ... some it'd barely creep over 150 for exactly the same power. And as CTL rose, the correlation was even worse.

Indoors I pace by avg. power first and PE second. I really don't look at the instantaneous power display much. Outdoors L4/5 is usually on the TT bike/SRM and I honestly miss the AP display. Pacing is mostly by PE with an occasional glance to the meter.

Don't you have an outdoor PM?

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22-01.-2008, 03:38 AM

#41

frenchyge

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Location: Kansas City, USA

Posts: 3,689

Re: CTL building strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmur17

Indoors I pace by avg. power first and PE second. I really don't look at the instantaneous power display much.

Same here. I monitor instantaneous power for the first 2 minutes to make sure I'm roughly on pace, then switch the display to average power.

22-01.-2008, 04:06 AM

#42

wiredued

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 1,172

Re: CTL building strategies

Not yet still using the KKR speed to power chart I'm not sure I can justify the expense of a PT I use the KKR about 70% of the time due to weather in New England. Improving FTP is cool but I will still ride if I don't hit 300w and I have this computer on my shoulders and sensors in my legs that I could probably put to better use maybe I should do 3x20s with my eyes closed and see how consistent I can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmur17

Don't you have an outdoor PM?

22-01.-2008, 04:08 AM	#43
TBiking Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 14	Re: CTL building strategies Great Thread! I was looking at all the charts and noticed something strange about mine. I am a MTBer that trains on road with PT. This fall I took cross season off and just did some low intensity MTBing and enjoying getting out in the woods. On Dec 15th (late start) I started to get back to training and went back to exclusive road (or computrainer). I have been doing a steady Monday-off, Tuesday - Strong SST / LT for 2 hours ish, Wednesday 1 hour L2, Thursday 2 x 20 SST for 75 min, Friday endurance / recovery based on feel, Saturday - long (3.5 hrs) with 2 x 20 and Sunday endurance with short sprints / micro burst (3hrs). My issue is my chart. Look were TSB started with only one PT ride the 2 months before this "season" started and the strong negative numbers. My FTP is 275 but similar rides / time / effort (of the charts I am seeing) seem to produce less (your guys charts) negative TSB? Please note, I am technically challenged so might be something I am doing. Final note, I went a strong first 5 weeks of "base SST" training before taking the past week light (which I wish I didn't do). I took it off as my TSB looked pretty negative but my legs felt OK (I could feel some accumulated fatigue but wasn't dying). I then tested FTP this weekend and suffered on computrainer in test, I am one of those people that off weeks just seem to jam up my legs / power but know I need some time off and reacted to the strong negative numbers. Any thoughts on my chart? Attached Thumbnails

22-01.-2008, 04:16 AM

#44

rmur17

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 972

Re: CTL building strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBiking

Great Thread!

I was looking at all the charts and noticed something strange about mine. I am a MTBer that trains on road with PT. This fall I took cross season off and just did some low intensity MTBing and enjoying getting out in the woods. On Dec 15th (late start) I started to get back to training and went back to exclusive road (or computrainer). I have been doing a steady Monday-off, Tuesday - Strong SST / LT for 2 hours ish, Wednesday 1 hour L2, Thursday 2 x 20 SST for 75 min, Friday endurance / recovery based on feel, Saturday - long (3.5 hrs) with 2 x 20 and Sunday endurance with short sprints / micro burst (3hrs).

My issue is my chart. Look were TSB started with only one PT ride the 2 months before this "season" started and the strong negative numbers. My FTP is 275 but similar rides / time / effort (of the charts I am seeing) seem to produce less (your guys charts) negative TSB? Please note, I am technically challenged so might be something I am doing.

Final note, I went a strong first 5 weeks of "base SST" training before taking the past week light (which I wish I didn't do). I took it off as my TSB looked pretty negative but my legs felt OK (I could feel some accumulated fatigue but wasn't dying). I then tested FTP this weekend and suffered on computrainer in test, I am one of those people that off weeks just seem to jam up my legs / power but know I need some time off and reacted to the strong negative numbers.

Any thoughts on my chart?

CTL ramp rate from mid-Dec to mid-Jan was around 10-12 pts per week or two to three times what most folks are hitting. Now I know you started from an apparent CTL of 15 ... but you had some riding that wasn't captured? Sorry if I misread/skimmed too quickly.

In any event, taking the #'s at face value: high CTL ramp rate implies ATL >> CTL which in turn implies TSB << 0.

You're ramping the training up rapidly and that's what is producing the low TSB's.

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22-01.-2008, 05:12 AM

#45

daveryanwyoming

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Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,505

Re: CTL building strategies

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBiking

...My issue is my chart. Look were TSB started with only one PT ride the 2 months before this "season" started and the strong negative numbers. My FTP is 275 but similar rides / time / effort (of the charts I am seeing) seem to produce less (your guys charts) negative TSB? ...

Did you seed the CTL and ATL start values or use data from last season? If you used seed values, how did you choose them?

It's not unusual to hit big negative TSB values when you first start back to regular training. My lowest TSB values for the last two years happened right at the beginning of winter training. But your very low values may reflect a very low starting seed to CTL.

If you seeded CTL low, much below the TSS of a typical workout that you have no trouble completing then your early workouts will be really high relative to your starting CTL. That will lead to very large negative TSB values that don't accurately reflect your fatigue. If you used carry on values from last year then it's possible that you didn't really lose as much base fitness as the models suggest(possibly doing other activities or the time constants just don't reflect how your body detrains over long periods of time). Either way, if you're doing weekly workouts that are manageable but your TSB seems much too low you can always go in and bump up the CTL and ATL starting seeds a bit until TSB more accurately reflects how you feel.

-Dave

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