Page 2 - Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

14-01.-2008, 01:45 PM

#16

edd

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Join Date: Jul 2003

Location: Syd. Aust.

Posts: 546

Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerco

That's all fine and good but they're still not VO2 max intervals. doing a 30/30 or 40/20, your maximum average power (for the 15min) will never be over what you could do for 15 min straight (not saying that the adaptations will be identical though). There are plenty of studies that show that overall, micro intervals of 30sec or less have the same adaptation as iso-power intervals at the same average power.

That said, if you did 2/3 at vVO2 max per the article (let's approximate to 120% FTP) and 1/3 at 50%, you average out to 96% of FTP. If you have any fast twitch in you, I would imagine that if you had a power meter on your spin bike, you'd find that you go a significantly harder on the first few intervals and significantly lower on the last several with an AP below 96% of FTP even though the PE would be through the roof.

When I do my microintervals, I usually do them as part of a 2x20min on the trainer/rollers to keep things interesting. I do the first 10min at FTP isopower then the second 10 min 30s on/ 30s off at around 200% of FTP on, almost zero off. Wait 5 min then do again.

For VO2 max, I do 6x5min intervals at 115% to 120% of FTP recovering 4 minutes in between. The first two are easy. 4 & 5 are quite difficult. #6 has almost made me puke but I managed to hold it back so far.

We do a staged warm up of 20 minutes then a 30 sec recovery then the 15 min of 40/20s then a 90 sec recovery, then 5 min of light spin. That's it. Do nothing else that session.

The thing I notice with these is the oxygen debt. Do these at max effort, you really suck wind. Not so much with 15 min straight hard effort.

14-01.-2008, 01:55 PM

#17

edd

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Location: Syd. Aust.

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Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerco

That's all fine and good but they're still not VO2 max intervals.

Fine, argue with Veronique Billat the French scientist. I know nothing for sure.

I do 10 x 1 minute intervals and they are so different due to the additional recovery. I thought that it was the limited 20 sec recoveries that set up the oxygen debt that gives the desired training effect. Previously Billat came up with the 3 minute intervals for VO2 max training.

14-01.-2008, 02:03 PM

#18

edd

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Location: Syd. Aust.

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Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerco

I would imagine that if you had a power meter on your spin bike, you'd find that you go a significantly harder on the first few intervals and significantly lower on the last several with an AP below 96% of FTP even though the PE would be through the roof.

Our spin bikes are 8 years old and up for replacement as soon as the bean counters let us. Trying to talk them into these.

http://www.keiser.com/m3/index.html

have a power meter !

14-01.-2008, 02:22 PM

#19

beerco

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Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by edd

Fine, argue with Veronique Billat the French scientist. I know nothing for sure.

I bet that Billat would back me up on this one. I think the issue is that there's something lost in translation (so to speak) in the writing of the article (Remember that those aren't Billat's words). From the article:

"Will 5 x 3 minutes improve VO2max, vVO2max, lactate threshold, and running economy more effectively than 30-30 and 60-60? In many cases, the answer is yes"

The reason it's "yes" is because the 3 minute interval targets VO2max much better than 15min of micro intervals (which would target FTP more).

The runners also were able to perform the 30-30 workout for a longer period of time because it's at a lower average power.

There has been some speculation that doing micro intervals can kind of kill two birds with one stone by getting you L4 and L6 workouts at the same time. There's been a lot of discussion on the wattage list on this topic including Billat's work.

I do like microintervals and they certainly keep things interesting.

14-01.-2008, 02:26 PM	#20
Miscreant Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 51	Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals ! I was under the impression that most people will do 3 min intervals for vo2max at something like 120-130% FTP with 3 min recovery, 4-6 efforts.

14-01.-2008, 02:28 PM

#21

beerco

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Join Date: Nov 2003

Posts: 576

Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by edd

Our spin bikes are 8 years old and up for replacement as soon as the bean counters let us. Trying to talk them into these.

http://www.keiser.com/m3/index.html

have a power meter !

Looks pretty nice. Can you download the power file?

I like this one: http://www.saris.com/p-315-pro-300pt.aspx

I own a cardgirus but don't like it that much - no ability to export power files and the power "measurement" is rather inaccurate (at least so it seems).

14-01.-2008, 02:40 PM

#22

beerco

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Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miscreant

I was under the impression that most people will do 3 min intervals for vo2max at something like 120-130% FTP with 3 min recovery, 4-6 efforts.

120% to 130% FTP gets you more into anaerobic capacity land and less in VO2 max land (although of course there is overlap).

14-01.-2008, 02:41 PM

#23

edd

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Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerco

running economy more effectively than 30-30 and 60-60? .

There is a hugely difference between 30-30 (or 40-20) and 60-60.

60-60 are very anerobic, you produce more power doing these then 40/20s

Due to the limited recovery 40-20 are performed at less a power production. I can't quantify this.

14-01.-2008, 02:42 PM

#24

Miscreant

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Join Date: Dec 2007

Posts: 51

Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerco

120% to 130% FTP gets you more into anaerobic capacity land and less in VO2 max land (although of course there is overlap).

so what % of FTP would you perscribe if i was to do 3-5 min intervals with 1:1 rest? aiming for vo2max workout.

14-01.-2008, 02:47 PM

#25

edd

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Location: Syd. Aust.

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Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerco

I own a Lemond Revmaster, no power meter, very quiet, very fine resistance adjustment can select a HR an dial it up. I use it for recovery spins.…30 min in the morning, I do these at set cadences for different days, have a metronome

14-01.-2008, 02:57 PM

#26

beerco

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Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miscreant

so what % of FTP would you perscribe if i was to do 3-5 min intervals with 1:1 rest? aiming for vo2max workout.

I actually had it in another post in this same thread.

I do 6x5 minute intervals starting at 115%FTP sometimes up to 120% as I get stronger (my AWC seems pretty decent). I do a 4 minute recovery just to save a little time over a 5 min recovery (edit: the extra minute doesn't seem to help much).

To clarify even more, for the very first session of the year I start at 115% of FTP for the first 4 intervals. If I have it in my, I shoot for 5 to 10w more on the last two. If I can do that without problem, I'll use that number as the starting point for the next session the key being that the power should be low enough that I can complete all 6 intervals but still above 115%.

There have been plenty of sessions (maybe 1/4?) where I could not finish the 6th interval. I probably would have been better off doing the other 5 at a slightly lower power to be able to complete the 6th.

14-01.-2008, 03:56 PM	#27
edd Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Syd. Aust. Posts: 546	Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals ! Just to mix things up a bit: I like to do 5 or 10 min and 20 or 30 min intervals on the road or on a hill. because of specificity of the adaptation. I like the indoor trainer for 60 min or 120 min blocks of base work, recovery spins and for short intervals. Anybody notice how indoor stuff doesn't always translate to outdoor performance ?

15-01.-2008, 01:06 AM

#28

Miscreant

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Join Date: Dec 2007

Posts: 51

Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by edd

Anybody notice how indoor stuff doesn't always translate to outdoor performance ?

hells yes. It's is soooo much more mentaly satisfying to actually be going somewhere, instead sitting in one spot staring out the window. Not to mention cooling yourself isn't artifical.

15-01.-2008, 02:39 AM

#29

frenchyge

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Location: Kansas City, USA

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Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by edd

Anybody notice how indoor stuff doesn't always translate to outdoor performance ?

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that fitness gained indoors doesn't translate to higher performance outdoors?

Personally, I find that after 3 months pounding on the trainer that I am usually far stronger than my friends who have been riding outdoors over the same time period. While the wattages may not match exactly, an improvement in one definitely translates to an improvement in the other, for me.

15-01.-2008, 02:49 AM

#30

Felt_Rider

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Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,232

Re: Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that fitness gained indoors doesn't translate to higher performance outdoors?

Personally, I find that after 3 months pounding on the trainer that I am usually far stronger than my friends who have been riding outdoors over the same time period. While the wattages may not match exactly, an improvement in one definitely translates to an improvement in the other, for me.

Seems to be working for me as well. My group got a taste of it on Saturday within the last mile +/- to the parking lot.

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