wheel cover turbine

datakoll

On Dec 22, 10:22Â*am, Buteo lineatus <Buteo.linea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 21, 7:56�pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You are of course right but I'm just being curious. Who knows what we
> > can come up with.
>
> One never knows where curiousity may lead, but it helps to focus your
> search by
> getting involved in some kind of project with a goal. Sudent projects
> often involve attempts to exploit the essence of some pet theory,
> without ever finding out how the
> idea translates into reality.
>
> > If it's really worth it we should investigate how to create additional
> > drag with the wheel.
>
> Motor vehicle braking technology being quite adequate, I can't imagine
> any use for
> additional wheel drag due to aerodynamic effects.
>
> > So far I found this patent from Mr Barefoot, not entirely sure how it
> > works but the toy makes lift from spin and the patent makes
> > interesting citations from sailing and flying machines.http://www.google..com/patents?vid=USPAT4051622
>
> It works like an end-plated airfoil, creating "lift" by a combination
> of Bernoulli principle, Newtonian reaction and circulation theory.
>
> > The owner had covered the back seat in aluminum foil (as a joke) but
> > the foil was blowing upwards from the tire. He wasn't going that fast
> > and there was at least 15 cm of space between the wheel and the
> > spontaneously self assembled measurement apparatus. :-)
>
> How do you know that the lift on the aluminum foil wasn't caused by
> air under the foil trying to move into the low pressure region behind
> the rider's butt?
>
> > I'm just curious :-)
>
> Curiousity is a sign of an active mind.

ALL HAIL STEVE FOSSETT

gdewilde@gmail.com

On Dec 22, 4:22 pm, Buteo lineatus <Buteo.linea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How do you know that the lift on the aluminum foil wasn't caused by
> air under the foil trying to move into the low pressure region behind
> the rider's butt?
>

Yes, but of course, that has to be it. The pressure is there but that
vacuum is obviously much bigger. To move air we need both a high and a
low pressure zone. So my weird observation was that air flows from the
back end of the tire to the back of the rider. It's still weird to
see.


> Motor vehicle braking technology being quite adequate, I can't imagine
> any use for additional wheel drag due to aerodynamic effects.
>

Yeah, but I'm sure you can imagine creating drag is possible. Just
treat it like an ability to create something. Drag doesn't sound very
useful but it's work to move air? Have to use the tire because there
isn't any room on a bike for devices that size.

> > So far I found this patent from Mr Barefoot, not entirely sure how it
> > works but the toy makes lift from spin and the patent makes
> > interesting citations from sailing and flying machines.http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4051622
>
> It works like an end-plated airfoil, creating "lift" by a combination
> of Bernoulli principle, Newtonian reaction and circulation theory.
>

Even tho it sounds impossible I was trying to figure out how to fit
the wheel into the rim under an angle. We have flexible couplings, it
should be possible to have the rim move under a different angle from
the rest of the wheel and put blades on the spokes so that the drag
accelerates the wheel as if sailing up the wind.

I put a new turbine design on the page. Nothing has the right size,
it's just an illustration of a thought.

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/wheel-cover-turbine
gabydewilde - wheel cover turbine

I was drawing to slow it was already described by Bruce in the
meantime.

gdewilde@gmail.com

On Dec 22, 10:07 pm, "bsr3...@my-deja.com" <bsr3...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
> On Dec 21, 10:56 pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 22, 2:02 am, Buteo lineatus <Buteo.linea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 21, 4:01?pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Thanks for the references. I confess I don't know much about the
> > > > topic.
>
> > > I think you should study up on boundary layer, Reynolds numbers,
> > > laminar flow, turbulent flow, Coanda effect, and Tesla boundary layer
> > > pumps before considering any technological solutions if you're trying
> > > to set some kind of record with a bicycle.
>
> > You are of course right but I'm just being curious. Who knows what we
> > can come up with.
>
> > > > To me it seems like a simple flexible extension at the front of the
> > > > rear wheel cover (like in my illustration) would suffer a downwards
> > > > force. As this would tend to bend the extension forwards it should
> > > > create some trust.
>
> > > Yes, it could create some small amount of thrust, but you have to
> > > realize that the dynamic pressure of air = density ratio X mass of air
> > > X velocity in ft/sec^2 X cross-sectional area pf the stream
>
> > > The mass of air is so low and the velocity of the air pumped by the
> > > tire is very low,
> > > so the dynamic pressure will be small.
>
> > > > The boundary layer flow is already squashed into
> > > > the ground, I don't think it can get much worse application as that.
>
> > > No, the boundary layer is viscous and stays attached to the rotating
> > > tire as long as flow in laminar. The larger stream of air outside the
> > > boundary layer would be moving slower than the air stuck in the
> > > boundary layer.
>
> > I didn't word that correctly. The layer closest to the tire would go
> > almost as fast as the tire. The first one is glued onto the tire,
> > every next layer goes a bit slower.
>
> > I was suggesting to gradually compress the slowest part so that it
> > goes faster as the medium flow. In stead of having a solid frame
> > around the wheel it would then be sealed in (some what) moving air.
>
> > > > By gradually making the circle smaller the air accelerates around the
> > > > rim. Like a ballerina pulling her arms in.
>
> > > You're thinking of angular momentum, and I doubt if the polar moment
> > > of inertia of a mass of air amounts to anything. You can google up
> > > "flywheel" at Wikipedia to study that subject.
>
> > Only the fastest moving layer should remain on the tire. The slower
> > layers create drag on the ground and cross the air flowing around the
> > bike.(underneath)
>
> > So it would be thrust in exchange for drag.
>
> > If it's really worth it we should investigate how to create additional
> > drag with the wheel.
>
> > So far I found this patent from Mr Barefoot, not entirely sure how it
> > works but the toy makes lift from spin and the patent makes
> > interesting citations from sailing and flying machines.http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4051622
>
> > > > Would that make the boundary layer drag go faster as the tire?
>
> > > > If so, would it create any note-worthy trust?
>
> > > I doubt it. The fastest dustbin-faired downhill bicycle I ever saw
> > > only went about 130 mph. With 32-inch diameter wheels, the RPM at 130
> > > is only 1365 RPM.
>
> > > But, if you study Tesla boundary layer pumps you can get some idea of
> > > how fast the disks have turn to move an appreciable amount of air.
>
> > I started thinking about this when I saw the wind coming from the rear
> > wheel of a bicycle riding in front of me.
>
> > The owner had covered the back seat in aluminum foil (as a joke) but
> > the foil was blowing upwards from the tire. He wasn't going that fast
> > and there was at least 15 cm of space between the wheel and the
> > spontaneously self assembled measurement apparatus. :-)
>
> > As that was just a slow moving bike I became curious how much wind
> > motor cycles blow into the ground. The tire isn't quite flat like a
> > Tesla turbine.
>
> > Still that doesn't mean there is note worthy action to be exploited.
>
> > I'm just curious :-)
>
> >http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/wheel-cover-turbine
> > gabydewilde - wheel cover turbine- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Put an inlet on one side of the wheel in front and an outlet on the
> other side of the wheel toward the back. The spoke area of the wheel
> should be compleatly enclosed. Make the spokes into blades of a fan.
>
> Notice that on GP bikes and many race replicas they have a close
> fitting rear fender attached to the swingarm to maintain the close
> spacing.
>
> Bruce

I was thinking of just that, thanks for pointing out the GP bikes.

My drawing of what you describe is on the page.

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/wheel-cover-turbine
gabydewilde - wheel cover turbine

gdewilde@gmail.com

On Dec 22, 11:19 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> On 2007-12-22, bsr3...@my-deja.com <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 21, 10:56 pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >> As that was just a slow moving bike I became curious how much wind
> >> motor cycles blow into the ground. The tire isn't quite flat like a
> >> Tesla turbine.
>
> >> Still that doesn't mean there is note worthy action to be exploited.
>
> >> I'm just curious :-)
>
> >>http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/wheel-cover-turbine
> >> gabydewilde - wheel cover turbine- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Put an inlet on one side of the wheel in front and an outlet on the
> > other side of the wheel toward the back. The spoke area of the wheel
> > should be compleatly enclosed.
>
> I cannot rule out the possibility that that kind of thing might have
> some beneficial effect.
>
> > Make the spokes into blades of a fan.
>
> But I'm sure this is going too far. If you make the wheel into a fan,
> then in effect you're propelling the bike partly by swimming through the
> air rather than by pushing against the road. This is certainly going to
> be much less efficient.
>

Imagine each blade as a sail sailing close to the wind. If the blade
is not spinning forwards the "wind" from the drag is not coming from
the direction the blade is traveling in.

Even tho it sounds impossible I was trying to figure out how to fit
the wheel into the rim under an angle. We have flexible couplings, it
should be possible to have the rim move under a different angle from
the rest of the wheel.

But it would still require blade shaped spokes so it would be easier
to change the wind direction in the first place.

> You could connect the cranks not to the back wheel at all but to a big
> propeller on the front or rear. But I would bet dollars to doughnuts
> that would be much less efficient than if you did just connect it to the
> wheel.
>
> It's one thing to try to improve the overall drag of a vehicle with some
> solution involving moving parts-- this is quite an interesting question.
> It's quite another to actually increase the work you're doing in
> stirring up the air as a means of pushing the vehicle along. I doubt
> that's ever going to be as efficient as turning a wheel against a road.

Yes, more parts = bad need to use the same parts for everything and
even eliminate them where we can. This makes the wheel an interesting
candidate to become a propeller.

Drag is mainly caused by frontal surface area if we put the wheel
inlet at the front it would remove the drag from that surface and put
a vacuum there.

It all sounds a bit Battle star galactica but that is from 1980

600 internet years ago.

hehehe

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/wheel-cover-turbine
gabydewilde - wheel cover turbine

datakoll

On Dec 21, 5:20Â*pm, Buteo lineatus <Buteo.linea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 21, 12:29�pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A tire drags air along it's rim, this airstream becomes thicker and
> > more violent when you go faster. I was thinking perhaps it is possible
> > to find a way to cut this Mohawk of air into a more useful shape.
>
> The air pumping effect is at its worst with slick tires because of the
> boundary layer.
>
> Tread patterns will break up the boundary layer and cause turbulent
> flow.
>
> Another way to break up the boundary layer is by using a strategically
> positioned
> "trip wire" such as model airplane pylon racers employ.
>
> Sportsracing cars using treadless tires will have louvers in the tops
> of the fenders to reduce drag caused by the tires acting as air pumps.

tires pump air? is this why disc brakes come with heater elements for
those long straights?

gdewilde@gmail.com

On Dec 23, 12:37 am, Buteo lineatus <Buteo.linea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2:19�pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
>
> > It's one thing to try to improve the overall drag of a vehicle with some
> > solution involving moving parts-- this is quite an interesting question.
> > It's quite another to actually increase the work you're doing in
> > stirring up the air as a means of pushing the vehicle along. I doubt
> > that's ever going to be as efficient as turning a wheel against a road
>
> Using a propellor to drive a land vehicle is a dumb idea.
>

Yes, we all agreed on that for hundreds of years.

> The aerodynamic thrust that comes off a propellor is sensitive to the
> square of the air velocity passing over the blades,

Ok, say you are traveling at 10 mph up against wind of 10 mph.

This would be 20 mph drag.

We get 8 parts of energy out of 1 part drag and 1 part wind.

That leaves us with 6 parts to play with.

lol

> so fixed pitch
> propellors work best over a narrow speed range and variable pitch
> propellors are used for high speed aircraft.
>

But then I just invent a new variable pitch propeller.

Sounds easy.

We are making very simple use of the prop, there is no need to adjust
it the mechanism can just be mechanically configured .

So the blade is attached to the spoke at the front side (direction of
travel) and we use a simple spring to pull the blade to the center
where it cuts no wind.

The angle of the blades will automagically change when there is air
streaming though the tube (either forwards or backwards).

By making the front side of the blade heavier as the back one can
prevent sidewards trust when breaking.

> Imagine varying the angle of your wheel spokes to get more thrust to
> go faster and the idea gets ridiculous. A wheel is a wheel, it
> transmits mechanical power, not aerodynamic thrust.
>

The wheel should of course continue to operate exactly like it does or
it wouldn't be an improvement. :-) I know it all sounds very weird but
I'm grateful for your thoughts on the subject. I always forget to
mention that. lol

> Gas turbine engines have many blades, while a propeller might have
> from 2 to 5 blades. Gas turbines produce so little power at lower RPM,
> 80% throtlle is idle speed.

Yes, but we should appreciate how big this problem really is for the
wind power industry. And they do seem to overcome it thought size. So
if they can use slow winds standing still we can use fast wind while
moving fast.

A no nonsense way to power the world?

Or am I wrong to assume that :

2 times 10 mph gives about 8 times as much drag as 10 mph?

Tom Sherman

Buteo lineatus wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2:19�pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
>
> Using a propellor to drive a land vehicle is a dumb idea....

butbutbut, you are forgetting the Cuisinart Effect!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

bsr3997@my-deja.com

On Dec 22, 7:12*pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 11:19 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2007-12-22, bsr3...@my-deja.com <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 21, 10:56 pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [...]
> > >> As that was just a slow moving bike I became curious how much wind
> > >> motor cycles blow into the ground. The tire isn't quite flat like a
> > >> Tesla turbine.
>
> > >> Still that doesn't mean there is note worthy action to be exploited.
>
> > >> I'm just curious :-)
>
> > >>http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/wheel-cover-turbine
> > >> gabydewilde - wheel cover turbine- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Put an inlet on one side of the wheel in front and an outlet on the
> > > other side of the wheel toward the back. *The spoke area of the wheel
> > > should be compleatly enclosed.
>
> > I cannot rule out the possibility that that kind of thing might have
> > some beneficial effect.
>
> > > Make the spokes into blades of a fan.
>
> > But I'm sure this is going too far. If you make the wheel into a fan,
> > then in effect you're propelling the bike partly by swimming through the
> > air rather than by pushing against the road. This is certainly going to
> > be much less efficient.
>
> Imagine each blade as a sail sailing close to the wind. If the blade
> is not spinning forwards the "wind" from the drag is not coming from
> the direction the blade is traveling in.
>
> Even tho it sounds impossible I was trying to figure out how to fit
> the wheel into the rim under an angle. We have flexible couplings, it
> should be possible to have the rim move under a different angle from
> the rest of the wheel.

My response was meant to play with Carl about his "Nope" response.
The wheel can be made into a good propeller, but that isn't the same
as saying it will improve overall efficency.

> But it would still require blade shaped spokes so it would be easier
> to change the wind direction in the first place.
>
> > You could connect the cranks not to the back wheel at all but to a big
> > propeller on the front or rear. But I would bet dollars to doughnuts
> > that would be much less efficient than if you did just connect it to the
> > wheel.
>
> > It's one thing to try to improve the overall drag of a vehicle with some
> > solution involving moving parts-- this is quite an interesting question.
> > It's quite another to actually increase the work you're doing in
> > stirring up the air as a means of pushing the vehicle along. I doubt
> > that's ever going to be as efficient as turning a wheel against a road.
>
> Yes, more parts = bad need to use the same parts for everything and
> even eliminate them where we can. This makes the wheel an interesting
> candidate to become a propeller.
>
> Drag is mainly caused by frontal surface area if we put the wheel
> inlet at the front it would remove the drag from that surface and put
> a vacuum there.

It is my understanding that an enclosed wheel has less drag than an
open wheel. Look at cars that have broken the land speed record.

Someone in this thread mentioned "dustbin" fairings. They did improve
airflow around motorcycles considerably but were banned in motorcycle
racing due to their instability in side winds. I don't know if they
were ever really tried on bicycles. In years past they may not have
been practical due to their weight. That may have changed with modern
materials. You might want to look up the "Gossimer Condor" (sp) which
was a peddle powered airplane.

Another possiblility might be to have an inlet at the front that
splits and guides the air through smooth passages to release it behind
the bike, reducing the vacume there. Current designs concentrate on
splitting the air but do little to bring it back together behind the
rider.

Bruce

> It all sounds a bit Battle star galactica but that is from 1980
>
> 600 internet years ago.
>
> hehehe
>
> http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/wheel-cover-turbine
> gabydewilde - wheel cover turbine- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Buteo lineatus

On Dec 22, 5:07�pm, "bsr3...@my-deja.com" <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Someone in this thread mentioned "dustbin" fairings. �They did improve
> airflow around motorcycles considerably but were banned in motorcycle
> racing due to their instability in side winds. �I don't know if they
> were ever really tried on bicycles.

http://montereyclassicbikeauction.com/minfo.php?id=52

Buteo lineatus

On Dec 22, 4:48�pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ok, say you are traveling at 10 mph up against wind of 10 mph.
>
> This would be 20 mph drag.
>
> We get 8 parts of energy out of 1 part drag and 1 part wind.
>
> That leaves us with 6 parts to play with.

Nope. Buy this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Flight-Theory...s/dp/0891004327

>
> But then I just invent a new variable pitch propeller.

Telll it to Hamilton Standard.

> Yes, but we should appreciate how big this problem really is for the
> wind power industry. And they do seem to overcome it thought size. So
> if they can use slow winds standing still we can use fast wind while
> moving fast.

Do you honestly believe that the forward speed of the bike is going to
somehow produce free power to increase the bike's, or do you think
that you can use wind power to make the bike move?

> Or am I wrong to assume that :
>
> 2 times 10 mph gives about 8 times as much drag as 10 mph?

If you go twice as fast you get four times as much drag because drag
is a velocity-squared effect.

datakoll

ahh the Condor. have you visited the Condor at the Space Museum?
Say, DeWilde is the reicannation of Rocket Man?
Can you email a source for Rocket Man info? The fellow on film with
the fireworks strapped to his back. We spoke of this previously.
Pope is CIA.
gene daniels

Buteo lineatus

On Dec 22, 4:12�pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Drag is mainly caused by frontal surface area

Not necessarily. Depends upon whether the surface area or velocity
squared is the larger variable in the equation. Shape is an important
factor too.

if we put the wheel
> inlet at the front it would remove the drag from that surface and put
> a vacuum there.

No, it would not remove drag, and it wouldn't cause a vacuum at the
front of the bike.

Motorcycle engineers trying to get a few more horsepower out of their
engines by
adding ram air ducting suceeded in getting about 0.3 pounds per square
inch pressure at around 150 mph, so your idea of a ram air propellor/
wheel just won't work.

You're not ready to start designing anything, because you don't know
enough about the physics involved.

Your first drawing showed that you don't understand how bounday layer
air pumping works, and you latest drawing shows you have no idea how
nozzles and
exhaust ducts would be shaped, assuming you had a high pressure source
of air to aim at your turbine blades.

Tom Sherman

bsr3997@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> It is my understanding that an enclosed wheel has less drag than an
> open wheel. Look at cars that have broken the land speed record.
>
> Someone in this thread mentioned "dustbin" fairings. They did improve
> airflow around motorcycles considerably but were banned in motorcycle
> racing due to their instability in side winds. I don't know if they
> were ever really tried on bicycles.

The Counterpoint Presto [1] is the only production example that comes to
mind with a wheel fairing: <http://www.ihpva.org/people/ianf/bm92/Presto/>.

> In years past they may not have
> been practical due to their weight. That may have changed with modern
> materials. You might want to look up the "Gossimer Condor" (sp) which
> was a peddle powered airplane.

The very thing for traveling salesmen!

> Another possiblility might be to have an inlet at the front that
> splits and guides the air through smooth passages to release it behind
> the bike, reducing the vacume there. Current designs concentrate on
> splitting the air but do little to bring it back together behind the
> rider.

That is what the tail-fairing is for:
<http://www.harwig.tomaatnet.nl/images/cv200515.JPG>.

[1] Later manufactured as the Pashley PDQ.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
POST FREE OR DIE!

gdewilde@gmail.com

On Dec 23, 3:55 am, Buteo lineatus <Buteo.linea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 4:48�pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 2 times 10 mph gives about 8 times as much drag as 10 mph?
>
> If you go twice as fast you get four times as much drag because drag
> is a velocity-squared effect.

And if I have 2 times as much wind my windmill makes 4 times as much
energy.

Agreed?

If I now put up 2 windmills in 1 times the wind.

Do I also get 4 times as much energy?

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/wheel-cover-turbine
gabydewilde - wheel cover turbine