’Tire Liners’ for commuters

jawnn

(Warning: Performance Jocks won’t like this)




Next time your sitting in the freezing mud changing a flat tire next to a busy road because you trusted one of the tire liners like Green slime or Mr tuffy or Spin skins remember this story.

I used schwalbe marathon tires (with Kevlar belts and spinskin tie liners) For a year with out any punctures, it looked like they had another years worth of tread on them. Then one day the rear tire developed a bulge when I took it off the wheel I discovered that a piece of glass had torn threw the center of the tread and the tire liner and half way threw the tube which pushed up into the hole. If I hadn’t been using a thorn resistant tube I would not had gotten home with out considerable misery.

Well then I had a wild idea that I could use the marathon tire inside another tire of the same size as an affordable heavy duty tire liner.

I had to cut off the bead (which reduced the weight by half), but it fit the other tire I had. If you want a lightweight liner, use a primo commit with Kevlar belt.

This won’t protect your outer tire but it will get you home with out the misery factor. I now have 6 tire on my bike and 8 on my trike.

WARNING! Tires are not standardized sizes. A 1.5" primo comet will not fit into a 1.5" schwalbe marathon, but a 1.25-1.35 will. A 1.5" marathon will fit into a 1.75" 70psi marathon and a 1.5" comet will fit into a 1.75" marathon plus. And a 1.5" Michelin transworld city tire may fit into a 1.5" marathon but not the other way around.

The green slime may work for low-pressure tires but all they can do is add thickness, not resistance. The other two have been known to move around and even cut the tires casing threads. There is a goop that will stop punctures but is so motion sensitive that it has to be replaced twice a year.

Specialized Armadillo tires are very puncture resistant but even those have been know to be punctured. They also have a problem with the tread coming off, so they have a lifetime warranty.

I still think they should make a steel belted bicycle tire, Kevlar doesn’t work very well. I looked at industrial tires and saw nothing but a poorly made solid tire whose tread wears fast.

__________________
All the commuter cycling info that I know is here: http://actionbent.blogspot.com/

Every thing from building a bike to what it takes to keep it on the road.

mawtangent

This is the second time I've heard of this method (putting a tire within a tire) and I might try it in the future (I've also been curious about tire-liners and slime, but remain sceptical).

I got a Windsor Stratford about a year ago and it came with Michelin Dynamic tires (700 x 25).(Before that my only experience with a road bike was a mid-80's 35-pound Huffy Dash 10-speed, which I still own and use as a beater/rain bike). I ride the Stratford about 15-20 miles twice a week (one ride is a commute of sorts, I drop off the car at my wife's job, and I ride home by bike). I seem to go for a few months without a flat, but then I might have 4-5 flats in a month (9 out of 10 times it's the back wheel tire). I have now ordered a Schwalbe Marathon Plus (700 x28) for the back wheel and I am going to carry an extra tube (along with a patch kit and mini frame pump), I'm hoping this will cut down on flats and cover most "flat" situtations (In the past I"ve twice created a gash around the stem bottom while pumping up after fixing the flat and had to start walking). I might also (in the future-I'm cheap and poor) get a topeak road morph (that, I believe, has a hose, and works like a miniture full-size pump) to decrease the posibility of ripping the stem out while pumping up the tire. I have no experience with high-end bikes, the $310 Stratford is the closet I've come to riding a "performance" bike (I also have a mid-80's Schwinn Traveler, which I love, but which needs to be serviced and is sitting idle for now), but I've concluded I can live with giving up some performance (heavier tires, etc) if it means more probability/and confidence in reaching my destination.

garage sale GT

The glass probably chewed through the tire and belt slowly. If you don't inspect after every ride, it will chew through your makeshift liner too. Look inside every gash.

Be careful with that Huffy Dash if it has chrome steel rims. In the rain, it's like the brakes aren't even there.

__________________
Your mouthwash ain't makin' it.

Jonahhobbes

Yeah garage that's a coincidence I've had a puncture this morning, when I was changing it I cut out loads of bits of glass from the tyre, (with my trusty swiss army knife ), that was working its way into the inside of the tyre. Saying that the Geax Evolutions,(finest tyre known to humanity), that I run take huge amounts of punishment though. It was just the front one has done about 300km to far and needs replacing.


I've used slime tyre liners in the past they are good but sometimes anything be it a thorn or nail that is of any length or twisted will tend to go around the liner and make a hole anyway, although they do cut out alot of damage and I would deffo recommend them if you live in the uk and cycle past hedgerows. I've also seen a nail or two go through them, (they must have been embedded in the ground sticking up or something). So good against most thorns and glass, but not everything.

__________________
"Americans are a broad-minded people. They'll accept the fact that a person can be an alcoholic, a dope fiend, a wife beater, and even a newspaperman, but if a man doesn't drive there's something wrong with him"

- Art Buchwald 1968

mawtangent

I hope this is not considered a thread high-jacking. I'd like to hear more about the tire-within-a-tire method, but I've also become curious about the "store-bought" tire-liners (Green Slime and Spin Skins have been mentioned in this thread, and I've also heard of others, including the inexpensive Mr. Tuffy brand)...If anyone could shed some light that would be great (I have googled and read some things on the Net, I don't see a search option on my Cycling Forums page, though I thought I used a search funtion on this site in the past).

I am entertaining the idea of putting them inside Michelin Dynamics (700 x 25), I have never considered tire liners (like Mr. Tuffy), thinking they were probably more trouble than they were worth, but I know little about them. How difficult is it to get them in place and, especially, to keep them in place while mounting them on the rim. Do they tend to stay in place, up the middle of the tire. Is there any possiblity of the tire liner itself causing a flat (prehaps where the ends join together)?

Thanks for any feedback

Jonahhobbes

Mawtangent,

The ones I have used on a 26x1.95 type sized tyre are really not problem to install and I used to secure them with a bit of gaffer tape at the ends and they can be cut to fit. They do move around a little so don't give the total protection and as I stated in my other post they will not stop everything. Although I would imagine if you are using road tyres which are narrower, (although obviously so is the liner), it would leave less space for the liner to move around.

Dunno if weight would cause problems as they were inside mountain bike tyres so for me it was not an issue.The ends are rounded so I can't see them causing a flat themselves.

I'm not using them at present as the Geax Evolution tyres I use are pretty much bomb proof, but if I ever had to switch to another slick/semi slick tyre I would install liners again and I would imagine for a road bike you would be much more prone to flats and the liners cut a lot of these out.

Bottom line: Give them a go.

P.S. they also have some other uses for things like making fittings for lights etc more snug.

__________________
"Americans are a broad-minded people. They'll accept the fact that a person can be an alcoholic, a dope fiend, a wife beater, and even a newspaperman, but if a man doesn't drive there's something wrong with him"

- Art Buchwald 1968

mawtangent

Thanks for the info about tire liners, I will probably try them in the future....

The Schwalbe Marathon Plus (700 x 28) arrived yesterday...Yes it definately should stop flats (it may be overkill for my situation)...It is heavy (it is supposed to weigh 690 grams, almost twice the weight of the 350 gram 700 x 25 Michelin Dynamics that I currently use, it feels, though, even heavier than I expected) and the tread is thick, especially up the middle (it has a "mushy" feel up the middle)............

I wondered how it would ride (on my back wheel, where I get 80% of my flats) and if it would "feel" slow. I was warned that the tire (in new condition) is very stiff and initially hard to mount and I was getting frustrated trying to get it onto the rim, but I finally wrestled it onto my back Alexrims DA22 (with my wifes help) and was beginning to feel like I might like it...........

It had plenty of room on each side of the frame tubing to roll properly (which I had accounted for), but (and I never expected this possiblity) it was too "tall" (the tire sits too far above the rim) and bumps up against the frame (into the horizontal bar that holds the the back brake in place). I don't see any solution except to run only 700 x 25 (or skinnier) tires on the back rim (maybe some "regular" 700 x 28 would fit but not the superthick Marathon Plus). The fork will allow it to fit on the front, but I got it especially to run on the back. I am disappointed but I will keep exploring possibilities for flat-control.

jawnn

well I had one person tell me that the extra weight would give a slow start, as if he had to race to work.

I never ride fast excpt when going down hill...

the only problem I have with it is getting the extra tires onto the rim.

http://funnyfarmart.com/tirelinersexposed.htm

__________________
All the commuter cycling info that I know is here: http://actionbent.blogspot.com/

Every thing from building a bike to what it takes to keep it on the road.

mawtangent

If anyone is interested (and I would like to bump the topic of "flat-prevention" to the top) I am returning the 700 x 28 Marathon Plus and exchanging it for a 700 x 25 Marathon Plus (which hadn't been listed as available when I ordered the 700 X 28, but is now listed, on biketiresdirect.com)...I am also getting a package of Mr Tuffy tire liners (for my Michalin Dynamic on the front, The Marathon Plus is going on the back, where I have 80%-90% of my flats).

My next step (in the future) is to get a Topeak Road Morph (that functions like a little floor pump) to prevent stem damage (damage that I have caused with a regular frame pump) when repairing flats on the road.

Maybe someday I will have enough tires on hand to try some of jawnn's tire-within-a-tire ideas.

Jonahhobbes

Hope this one works out for you.

__________________
"Americans are a broad-minded people. They'll accept the fact that a person can be an alcoholic, a dope fiend, a wife beater, and even a newspaperman, but if a man doesn't drive there's something wrong with him"

- Art Buchwald 1968

Sci-Fi

That's adding a lot of unsprung weight. Panaracer Flataway is what I use for tire liners, has an adhesive backing so it stays in one place and it made of Kevlar.

You can buy Kevlar tape in different widths and patterns/thicknesses by the yard from your local Marine supply store.

Think the best method I've seen so far is to use a thorn resistant tube, cut the valve stem off and insert your favorite brand of tire liner inside, duct tape over the cut, and assemble/install everything. Gives a layered protection without the weight penalty of using an actual tire inside...and easier to install/take off.

garage sale GT

The sides of a tire liner can slice a tube. I use them anyway and just install the tube carefully. I don't really recall what set of circumstances caused me to pinch a bit of tube between liner and tire.

Whether tire-within-a-tire, belted, lined, or sealant-filled, any bicycle tube protection depends on inspecting your tires and picking out the glass before it chews slowly through, a little bit during each revolution.

__________________
Your mouthwash ain't makin' it.

jawnn

You must have a warm place if you actually check your tires every day. Is that really enough??

I think the glass cuts in as far as it is going to, with in the first few hundred feet. I checked my front tire this weekend and found several small cuts with gravel in them with no glass in site, I think it disintegrated. Some of the cuts actually went threw the fist tire and would have punctured my tube, but none of the glass went into the second tire!!

What ever happened to the tire scrapers that were made to sit on the tire and scrape off glass before it could get pressed in? Did they not work? I want to try some.

__________________
All the commuter cycling info that I know is here: http://actionbent.blogspot.com/

Every thing from building a bike to what it takes to keep it on the road.

mawtangent

That would be a good experiment for the show "MythBusters"...I have no idea, I think I did read somewhere that those don't work.

It sounds like your tire-within-a-tire system is preventing flats...

About finding glass in the tire: about half of my flats in the last 17 months were due to reasons I could easily indentify (two pinch flats, running through glass in the dark and then pulling a bit of glass out of the tire, finding a wire that had worked its way to the tube, finding a wire from the disentigrating inside of an aging tire -that had caused its own flat, and a flat from a ridged plastic "patch" I had used to try to fix a tire, a staple stuck into the tire)...

The other half of my flats left no specific clues as to the cause, they were usually sudden and obvious (indicated by a hissing noise). This was always on the bike with the fairly thin-skinned Michelin Dynamics, pumped up to about 80-90 psi and 90% of the flats were on the back-wheel tire. It was very easy to find the hole in the tube, but there were no obvious signs as to what caused the flat, I inspected the tire inside and out and found nothing, no glass etc. I can only assume that something punctured the tire enough to get to and through the tube, but was then expelled away from the tire by the flex of the tire (or by virtue of size or being affixed to the road, etc.) When I was a kid with only "tank" tires this same senario was almost always the case. When (about once a year) I did get a flat I just fixed it, I never even thought of looking for a cause like a piece of glass stuck in the tire. My Michelin Dynamic that ran on the back wheel has three "through wounds" of which two I have covered with homemade rubber patches I salvaged from some car parts (softer, forgiving material seemed to do the trick-patched the tire without causing flats). I did dig one piece of glass out of that tire (which I already mentioned), and I think maybe a pinch flat contributed to the wound on the side wall, but I don't know what cause the other wound.

My point is that half my flats appeared to be spontanious, though I suspect that there was a sudden puncture, but no specific evidence was left behind.

I did get the 700 x 25 Marathon Plus yesterday, wrestled it on my back rim last night (with the reluctant help of my wife), and just ran it for 15 miles this afternoon. It has a "cushy" thick center "nouget" running all around the center of the tire. It seems to have just a tiny bit of a bigger profile than the Michenlin Dynamics and didn't rub on my bike frame (like the 700 x 28 Marathon Plus, with I returned). Initially the Marathon Plus seemed to ride differently but after a while I forgot about it and had a nice ride. I will probably stick with this tire on the back wheel for a good while and maybe try something just a bit lighter in the future (a "happy-medium" between weight and flat-resistance, maybe a 400-450 gram tire in the 700 x 25 size). I think I read that the Specialized Armadillos are around 450 grams. the Marathon Plus tire I have is probably around 600 grams). The Marathon Plus has some intricate tread, and though the tread is not that deep, I am used to the idea of a virtually treadless tire (my Michelin Dynamics are almost completely smooth). Psychologically (at least) I would feel like I was getting less rolling resistance with an "almost bald" tire.

I have the Tuffy liners but I may wait awhile before I try them with my Michelin Dynamic on the front rim (I have had very few flats on the front wheel).

I hope someone finds some of the above interesting.