Proof of Creationism (ID)

Crankyfeet

Can you please give some example of what you mean here?

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

Crankyfeet

No... they don't know exactly.

They are 99.99999999999% sure of how it occurred.

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

Crankyfeet

Please listen to the above man. Read what he says carefully.

But atheists IMO are also not trying to prove that belief in God does you no good. In fact, a lot of atheists I think envy the beautiful feelings that come with the typical beliefs and communal practices of people enveloped in religion. They're just not prepared to fool or lie to themselves to get there.

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

Crankyfeet

Which is why an elderly man like Dawkins was provoked to go public in defence of reason.

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

Crankyfeet

Felt - I respect your story because it is real. And I am happy for you and the positive life you're experiencing. But I don't think that the positive effects you have experienced prove that there is a God. All it proves is that believing in a God can give you positive effects.

Which isn't that profound, considering the survival of religion throughout the ages. If it had negative effects, it wouldn't have lasted long.

So why don't I believe in a Divine Creator? Same reason I don't believe in Santa.

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

nns1400

Welcome to the internet....

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If the shoe fits, buy it.

nns1400

That last statement seems to imply that believers are fooling or lying to themselves to get there...because it feels nice. Though I think maybe you didn't mean it like that...I said once before in a different thread that being a believer often means sacrifice and sometimes painful choices when we'd rather "do our own thing." Spiritual growth does not always come with beautiful feelings.

Not to mention having to put up with other believers... .

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If the shoe fits, buy it.

Crankyfeet

Fair point. It was wrong to imply that "believers" are in a cloud of ignorant joy all the time.

One of the offshoots of faith, IMO, is that it encourages one to take a good look at oneself. Because once one accepts the existence of an omnipresent being, especially a God that judges, one cannot fool oneself or others any longer. So a relationship with God, approximates a relationship with the core of oneself. And if there is one commonality to most religions it is this tussle with oneself and seeking righteousness. The image/definition of God maybe different, but these things are similar. It would be good though if people could seek their own spiritual happiness without the multitude of tenets that are inflicted by organized faiths.

Just my 2c.

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

Felt_Rider

Well put nns.

Cranky you projected your thoughts on me based on what you believe and I can understand that because it is your view. In my last post I clearly said that my change of heart would not be evidence to those who do not believe, but only to those who have experienced what I experienced will know what I am talking about. If that makes me look like someone who believes in ghosts or mystical things or if I appear to be a nutcake to forum members I can understand that. I scoffed, mocked and made jokes of Christianity until I was 32 as well so I understand your perspective.

nns's highlighted comments are very true because there are still very many struggles in this life for all of us to endure and many hard lessons to be learned in the future.

nns1400

I agree with that being the commonality...however I believe that when you look below the surface, every other belief system is ultimately about what the individual has to do or accomplish to achieve or earn that righteousness (or oneness or nirvana, etc etc). The effort must come from the individual, it's on his/her shoulders to get there. "Works based" is what that's called.

Christianity is the only belief system that offers a relationship with a personal God. And a righteousness that cannot be achieved on one's own. God has done it for you...accepting the righteousness of Jesus Christ in your stead is what reconciles you to God. In fact, it's quite the opposite of other systems. There is NOTHING you can do or achieve that will earn God's grace. This isn't to say that the life of a Christian doesn't involve "good works" etc but that isn't what creates the relationship with God.

I don't know if you saw The Passion of The Christ, but after I saw it, it made that even more clear to me. There really isn't anything I can add to what Jesus Christ did. It seems ridiculous in fact after that. In my view, Jesus is who makes me whole, and right with God, and then spends the rest of my life here molding (and hammering) me into the person he wants me to be.

NOTE: If someone wants to go off flaming about that movie, please just start a new thread. Even if you don't like me.

And unfortunately, it is "organized religion" that has added works based philosophy (the "have to" part) to Christianity, most especially Catholicism, and on the other end of the spectrum, some conservative forms of Baptist, Disciples Of Christ, etc. I grew up with people saying things like you can't get to heaven if you play cards, drink, dance or participate in "mixed bathing." I didn't even know what the hell that was until I was an adult (going swimming with members of the opposite sex - sounds worse though doesn't it). I even heard someone say someone else wasn't "saved" because they had one hand still sticking out of the baptismal waters.

Just my 2c...well, maybe that was more like 5 cents.

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If the shoe fits, buy it.

Carrera

Dawkins is a guy who's seen all the global hatred and intolerance caused in those countries where religion predominates. He's taken a look at the heresy trials, the stonings, the religious conflicts and concluded we'd all be far better off without it all. He's reached his conclusion and then sat out to back it all up by theory. Another guy who shares his point of view is Erich Von Daniken - writer of Chariots Of The Gods. Von Daniken's anger may have been provoked by his Jesuit School background.
In the light of that, Schwarzenegger in C.A. has recently stated he's a Catholic but stressed religious belief would never influence his political decision making. I think he was taking a subtle swipe at Bush. Still, this has always been the point. If religion is kept as a private affair, there is no harm done but when it influences policy or institutions, there are problems.
Back to Dawkin: I think he's being a little arrogant and claiming to know all the answers which is impossible. I don't believe in creationism as it's portrayed but I do see signs of life as an intelligently driven phenomenon that runs along the lines of basic evolution and adaptation. There appears to be logical, biological processes that control the process of birth and death and I don't see how this can all arise by a chance bang.
We're floating on a rock in outer space for some kind of reason and I still believe there are other life forms "out there" from weird plants to possibly more advanced forms of life.
The truth is, though, nobody can prove what they figure is the truth.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Felt_Rider

2 cents, 5 cents or more that was great post - IMO.

An Off the topic comment and then I am done.
I had an excellent ride today!!!! Great weather and a fast group.
Hope you guys and ladies got in some good riding this weekend.

Crankyfeet

Felt - I think we're in agreement. I respect your experience and understand that it is pointless to judge it unless one has experienced themselves. I think that is what you are trying to tell me.

I also agree that a harmonius spiritual state is something worthy of search for anyone. It is probably a yearning within everybody. Unfortunately for me personally, I struggle with all the ghost-like inventions that come parcelled with most religions. If I could overcome my natural skepticism of what I deem as make-believe, perhaps I could find the joy of faith and the mountains it can move.

But faith requires whole-hearted belief. And belief, for me, requires evidence and something that makes sense. This is the obstacle to my experiencing true faith.

[I apologize to both Bro and NNS that I have meandered in the discussion from Creationism to "Evidence for God".]

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

fscyclist

Well...this thread proved my initial point. Somehow the discussion turned into a discussion of religion (Christianity in particular), the Bible, war, references to Bush, works vs. faith, etc... All the above have NOTHING to do with the scientific exploration of the origin and maintenenace of life on this planet.