To peak or not to peak

cooljazz

I'm curious if there are any triathletes out there to hear what your CTL is and what event do you train for. My CTL seems to be levelling off at around 60 but I also run and swim.
-richard

frenchyge

Yes, if we are selective about the range of intensities and are talking about a more general (vice specific) period in the training program, then I agree we can pretty much make the blanket statement that more (TSS) is better.

But as your math above shows, very hard workouts at the lowest intensities will always yield more TSS, so the individual should use care not to stretch the blanket too far.

Porkyboy

Hi

I just wanted to say as a fairly new but increasingly well read PM user what a fantastic thread this has been and is, I have found it very very educational, thank you particularly to the major contributors for taking the time to explain things so clearly and for being so generous with your knowledge, it is greatly appreciated.

I'm just coming up to 50 years old and I have only been really using a PM in anger as it were since mid October of this year and so am steadily building up my reference data, my major target for next year is La Marmotte (early July). When I first started using my PM I started with a CTL of 31.3 TSS/d (data from CompuTrainer) and at the moment it is 53 TSS/d so an increase of 21.7 points in 8-9 weeks or an increase of about 3 TSS/week so that looks as if I'm in the right area, if a little low on the ramp rate.

So, if I continue like this for the next say 29 weeks until La Marmotte in theory my CTL would be well over 100+? If I'm right I have to keep doing more and more to keep my CTL rising at 3/week. Am I on the right track or is it unreasonable to expect to reach that sort of CTL given my starting point?

ALL advice welcome!

Thank you.

PB

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Alex Simmons

Well a CTL of 100 is certainly attainable but to some degree depends on whether you have previously trained to somewhere near that level before or not. I think it may be a mistake to expect to increase season on season CTL peak by too much (assuming you trained for similar times each season).

You are right though, the higher your CTL, the harder it gets to lift it further. e.g.:
at 50 CTL, to lift it 4 points you need a week of ~ 525 TSS
at 100 CTL, to lift it 4 points you need a week of ~ 875 TSS.

While long steady ramps are possible, there comes a time when you need a break and will need to let it plateau or fall somewhat. Also, as you progress and begin to introduce higher levels of intensity into the mix (upper L4 and up) it can get harder to lift CTL, let alone maintain it.

Lastly, CTL ain't everything. Don't forget the composition of your training and specificity to your goals.

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Porkyboy

Hi Alex

Thank you for the information, very interesting and good advice. Sorry to appear (and perhaps be) thick but how do you calculate the above?

Thanks.

PB

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Andy SG

I learn a lot via this forum, and are trying to use my knowledge in my training. One thing I like the most is how I can relate power output, in terms of 5 minute Power output or FTP, to my training -and different approaches in training, for instance 2x20 minutes - to improvment in my power output. During my 'studies' I've also realized that two approaches to improve on FTP exists, Push-up, or Pull-up approach.

Dave, you seem to favour a push-up approach, using 'core aerobic fitness' as the motivation. If we just assume that I were responding equally well to push-up or pull-up training when increasing my FTP what would be the other benifits using push-up approach. I guess that means I'm asking: what do you included when you refer to 'core arobic fitness'?

daveryanwyoming

I've been using the expression "core aerobic fitness" to describe power derived from sustainable metabolic processes combined with overall accumulated training load (CTL). It's just another way to talk about building a "big engine" or other expressions that try to capture the need to devlop sustainable power as opposed to a focus on high end short interval speed work.

From that standpoint, a "push up" method of raising FTP does a better job of also raising CTL for the reasons rmur17 pointed out on the previous page. You can just spend a lot more time in level doing mid SST than pure L4 or L5 work. A push-up method is also easier mentally. It's hard to push every workout right up towards or above your FTP and the thought of getting on the bike for one of those sessions late in the week can be daunting. I know I can get on the bike and do 80% of my FTP just about any day but I want to be pretty fresh for anything over 95%.

Anyway, "core aerobic fitness" is just a convenient way to talk about building a big engine or perhaps a way to talk about "base" building without implying LSD and long hours in the saddle. I like a push up approach (I still do harder efforts, they're just not the foundation of my FTP and CTL building) but others approach this differently so YMMV.

-Dave

rmur17

Short-hand: two birds with one stone .

Felt like cheating when I first started it in late 2004.

Having done my first non-weekend 2-hr SST ride on the CT last night, I can say I'm back on track and following my own advice!

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daveryanwyoming

Yes, It sounds like you've got a good grasp on this stuff. Just one thing to add to Alex's note on ramp rates...

Your CTL cannot rise above your average daily training load. So if you want your CTL to hit 100 TSS/day then you've got to average at least 100 TSS/day for 6 or more weeks. That implies 700 TSS per week for at least a month and a half. If you train 5 days a week and take total rest on the other days that implies 140 TSS per workout on the average.

In addition to the Performance Manager in WKO+ I have a custom bar chart showing TSS in 7 day blocks and started my training year on a Monday so this chart displays weekly TSS. It helps me keep an eye on my weekly training load so I make sure I'm staying ahead of my current CTL during periods when I'm trying to build.

Anyway, in addition to thinking in terms of sustainable ramp rate you should think about how much daily and weekly load is required to hit your CTL target. Ask yourself if you have enough time available for that sort of load and remember you have to hold that level for quite a while before your CTL approaches that limit. It's part of overall load management and time management.

I've been using double indoor workouts a few days a week to hold my weekly TSS in the 600-700 range. It's a lot of time on an indoor trainer. If you have more time available to train and recover and especially if you live in a climate warm enough for year round outdoor training you can probably hit those targets fairly easily but just make sure your CTL goal of 100+ fits your lifestyle.

And FWIW, Alex's points about training mix and not getting overly fixated on CTL are right on target. This thread has been about peaking and base building so we've talked a lot about CTL but it's only one component of cycling fitness. Don't ignore sustainable power (FTP) and training to match the needs of your events.

-Dave

acoggan

42 d time constant = 1/2 life of ~29 d = ~3 mo to get 87.5% of the way there, ~4 mo to get 92.25% of the way there, ~5 mo to get 96.125% of the way there, etc.

Not that this is news to you...but I thought it might be helpful for others.

daveryanwyoming

Yeah, dang exponential curves. Ya never quite get there....

Duly busted on taking a simplistic block averaging view.

Still it really drives home the point that you've got to hold an average daily TSS well above your CTL goals for quite a while to achieve those goals.

-Dave

acoggan

Nothing wrong with that, at least as long as you pick the right length for each 'block'.

A bit more seriously: since three half-lives gets you almost 90% of the way to a plateau, I like to think of CTL as primarily reflecting what you've done in the last ~3 mo, and ATL as primarily reflecting what you've done in the past ~2 wk (since time constant of 7 d = half-life of ~5 d, and three half-lives = 15 d).

JustCurious

It may be just me, but it sure seems to drop a lot faster than it rises.

Porkyboy

Hi

Me again, sorry to go on about this but how does this get worked out? I'd like to know how to work out what TSS to aim for in say my next week of training to raise my current CTL by say 3 points. Never was any good at sums

I'm sure it will all make sense whan I've been at it 3 or 4 years!

Thanks.

PB

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