Page 3 - Off-Season Intensity

06-12.-2007, 12:14 PM	#31
mikeyp123 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 44	Re: Off-Season Intensity Did anyone answer the original question? Let me hi-jack the thread and rephrase the question: Is it more productive, in the off-season, to train using LSD, or something more along the lines of SST (sweet spot training)? With the end goal of being faster in your run of the mill road race, crit, and TT. Lets assume one won't being doing 3-4 hour stage races. thanks!

06-12.-2007, 02:46 PM

#32

john979

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 215

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyp123

Did anyone answer the original question? Let me hi-jack the thread and rephrase the question:

Is it more productive, in the off-season, to train using LSD, or something more along the lines of SST (sweet spot training)? With the end goal of being faster in your run of the mill road race, crit, and TT.

Lets assume one won't being doing 3-4 hour stage races.

thanks!

SST is much more productive, when done properly.

06-12.-2007, 09:07 PM

#33

Andy SG

Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 19

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyp123

I think that the previous discussion in this thread didn't give a good answer, and in the rather nerdy answers a key point was missing.

My view is this: Most efficient training is to improve on your limiting factor. For me it is the ability to go with the rest of the pack until the end of the race. I then ask myself if this is an endurance issue, but using a training program inspired by Friel I trained a lot of LSD, and setting my own pace I could almost go on for ever, so I came to the conclusion that my problem was that I was worn out to early in the race. Checking with training partners, I realized that I was working harder, in % of my maximum output capability, than others during the race, and hence I was worn out earlier ...

With this as a background I find the concept of FTP beeing helpfull, in targeting my training, and measure its effect.

Since most riders will benifit from having an easier ride towards the end of the race, the FTP concept is useful as a point of reference since you can relate it to training methods.

I improve my FTP a lot via VO2max training - It's very efficient. Still since I target a 300km road race and XC marathon it wont take me the whole way. I will limit my LSD sessions a lot this year, and see where I end up, however.

06-12.-2007, 11:24 PM

#34

frenchyge

Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Kansas City, USA

Posts: 3,616

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyp123

It was answered in the first couple posts, as usual -- there is no "must train this way to have a successful racing season."

As for your re-phrase, the devil is in the details -- how much training time one has to spend, how often they train, their susceptibility to burnout, at what level they intend to race, length of the events, number and timing of key events, etc. If it were possible to unequivocally say that three-letter-acronym XYZ is better than ZYX then we wouldn't continue to see this discussion.

If you're looking for help developing your own training plan based on one or more conceptual approaches, then I'd suggest looking into the prescribed/example plans that go with each approach and determining which seems most likely to fit the time that you have available to (and desire to) train.

06-12.-2007, 11:45 PM

#35

musher

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Cascades-Wenatchee WA

Posts: 124

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyzackery

I guess you're assuming I'm not training for longish race???

Anyway, thank you for your reply Ric Stern - oops, you're not Ric Stern. Regardless, I'll agree to disagree here. For my background - predominantly anaerobic and explosive sport events - LongSteadyMiles are what I need to build my base during the off-season. As the competitive outdoor racing season approaches, I'll add in the higher intensity training - not during the early winter months.

What's working for me may not work you, I'll leave it at that.

You are right, what work for me may not for you

.
I am not assuming anything ...( Training need to be Structure for the duration of the Competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their Event )

.
You need to read before anwsering .

I train for stage racing ,i do my (LSD )at L3 & low L4 from August to Oct. ,after i have to do my w/o on the trainer ( snowing ) then i focuse on Specifics of my event ,cirt ,TT ,road r,...
Ride hard , Musher

07-12.-2007, 12:01 AM

#36

musher

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Cascades-Wenatchee WA

Posts: 124

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urkiola2

Have you ever thought about the assimilation of that training and possible overtraining from training so much and so long at FTP/LT or VO2max?....I have seen it in the "battle field" many many times and by May many people are quite overtrained....However since there are so many people in that condition many people will be racing under the same "underperformance" conditions.

We allways talk about how to scientifically train but barely talk about how to scientifically monitor overtrainig.

Are you talking from many years of experience

.
I started racing in 1970

.

I had a vey very good racing season master cat 3 , all in 1st , 2nd ,3rd places and a 52k state TT CHAMP. 1ST PLACE

...

How was yours ?, All the best,
Ride hard, Musher

07-12.-2007, 02:26 AM

#37

jsirabella

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: NYC, USA

Posts: 470

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Truth be told I really think that so many factors go into it that it is very hard to say. Me for instance who was more of a geek in school and did not do any sports at all but was a bike messenger when in college and than never really did anything until about 3 years ago because I broke my ankle compared to the ex-runner, ex-body builder, ex-(you name it) or euro-pro will need different type of training and will progress differently due to the amount of time they can put in combined with their age and genetics.

Yes it does come down toi what works for you but I can say with a great amount of confidence that nothing has worked better for me than the power meter and just following the book. When compared to a trainer I worked with who was giving me schedules with 3 or more hours a day of riding it just made no sense for my time constraints and age and background. I can say without doubt that the program in the book can work for anyone...

It is very straight foward as was when I got into body building about 3 or 4 years ago and followed the 5 pound rule and worked on the basic mass building exercises combined with clean eating and a good diet.

This is why honestly, IMHO, I find you really need to know alot more about a person's background (ex-runner, track) and time constraints (how many hours per week) and vital statistics (age, weight, health conditions?) and ofcourse goals (crits, road race, just fitness?) before making a plan. Without this info, youc an not develop a proper schedule...I told my coach/trainer this and he finally this year sent out a question sheet asking this exact info...lol.

-Js

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyp123

07-12.-2007, 02:32 AM

#38

tonyzackery

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: Seattle, WA/Vancouver BC

Posts: 386

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by musher

You are right, what work for me may not for you

.
I am not assuming anything ...( Training need to be Structure for the duration of the Competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their Event )

.
You need to read before anwsering .

I train for stage racing ,i do my (LSD )at L3 & low L4 from August to Oct. ,after i have to do my w/o on the trainer ( snowing ) then i focuse on Specifics of my event ,cirt ,TT ,road r,...
Ride hard , Musher

Thanks, Ric Stern, oops again - you're NOT Ric Stern. Perhaps YOU need to read before answering...

07-12.-2007, 05:38 AM

#39

musher

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Cascades-Wenatchee WA

Posts: 124

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyzackery

Thanks, Ric Stern, oops again - you're NOT Ric Stern. Perhaps YOU need to read before answering...

You must be a Pro.

, you doing all the talking and no learning

.Ric ????

you are so confuse you dont know how you anwsering,

,....bla bla bla........

07-12.-2007, 05:39 AM	#40
mikeyp123 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 44	Re: Off-Season Intensity Interesting stuff.. thanks for the feedback. I omitted some details in my previous post, I have done LSD training back in my triathlon days, 5+ years ago, it was really in vogue back then. Granted I sometimes competed at much longer durations, and needed to acclimate to such efforts, LSD probably made sense in that scenario.. 1/2 ironman was my longest. After spending 3 years as a competative age-group triathelete, I ditched it all for running. I was never a fantastic runner, but was capable of a 20 min 5k. But cycling always came naturally to me. I'm light, currently 66kg (146 lbs at 5'11"), and have very strong legs for my build, I think it may have something to do with my lifting obsesssion prior to my triathlon phase.. sets at 225+lbs easy (back then I was 81kg (180lbs), but have't lifted seriously in a long time). Last year I focused on cycling. This will be my first season racing. Last season I did lots of local group rides, it didn't take long to adjust to the fast roadie rides. So now I'm in that off-season build phase, first race is in late January (I'm in the SoCal area). I've got the power-meter on its way, I've read Andy and Hunter's book, I'm starting to follow their SST approach.. it just makes more sense for me. I don't need to accilimate to seriously long events, I'm already in good shape, I don't need to "adjust" to a road bike, which leads me to conclude that LSD won't be beneficial. Although I do see some local cat 3 riders going LSD at this time of year. That's were the confusion lies. Are their coaches not current to power-training? Maybe they have different needs? But persnonally, I would hate to exchange current aerobic fitness for saddle time. My other worry is that I'm starting too intense too early, but I will have more data when I start using the PT and CyclingPeaks. mike

07-12.-2007, 09:03 AM

#41

jsirabella

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: NYC, USA

Posts: 470

Re: Off-Season Intensity

I am in now way your best source in ths forum as besides the book, Dave has given me alot of info and has helped me make some great progress. Also Ric is another great source here.

But IMHO, you already answered your own question, it would seem to me with yor sports background, you did not need to work on building an aerobic engine with LSD training. All you need to do is get your sustainable watts up and that is SST training. Dave has told me over and over again how L3/SST/L4 is the key especially if time is a limiting factor.

Now if you are like my coach (now spinning on his fourth hour on the company CT trainer like 140 watts or so in the office above me ) go for LSD and make it part of your training. But otherwise you have seemed to nail it down to me. Also in the book they talk alot about the ftp test and the 20 minute effort but really get yourself on a trainer and see what wattage you can hold for one hour. That is my only test combined with what Dave showed me, the Monod test. I overestimated a little bit in the beginning based upon the ftp test but keep in mind watts is just a measuring stick and as long as you get better with each new measure uisng the same stick means you are getting better.

As for other cat 3 riders and there reasons, it can be a million from scientific to just that is what I learned and what everyone else is doing...personally I would go with the power training, simple and easy to follow and measure yourself.

-Js

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyp123

Interesting stuff.. thanks for the feedback.

I omitted some details in my previous post, I have done LSD training back in my triathlon days, 5+ years ago, it was really in vogue back then. Granted I sometimes competed at much longer durations, and needed to acclimate to such efforts, LSD probably made sense in that scenario.. 1/2 ironman was my longest. After spending 3 years as a competative age-group triathelete, I ditched it all for running. I was never a fantastic runner, but was capable of a 20 min 5k. But cycling always came naturally to me. I'm light, currently 66kg (146 lbs at 5'11"), and have very strong legs for my build, I think it may have something to do with my lifting obsesssion prior to my triathlon phase.. sets at 225+lbs easy (back then I was 81kg (180lbs), but have't lifted seriously in a long time).

Last year I focused on cycling. This will be my first season racing. Last season I did lots of local group rides, it didn't take long to adjust to the fast roadie rides. So now I'm in that off-season build phase, first race is in late January (I'm in the SoCal area). I've got the power-meter on its way, I've read Andy and Hunter's book, I'm starting to follow their SST approach.. it just makes more sense for me. I don't need to accilimate to seriously long events, I'm already in good shape, I don't need to "adjust" to a road bike, which leads me to conclude that LSD won't be beneficial. Although I do see some local cat 3 riders going LSD at this time of year. That's were the confusion lies. Are their coaches not current to power-training? Maybe they have different needs? But persnonally, I would hate to exchange current aerobic fitness for saddle time. My other worry is that I'm starting too intense too early, but I will have more data when I start using the PT and CyclingPeaks.

mike

07-12.-2007, 09:28 AM

#42

Urkiola2

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007

Posts: 89

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by musher

Are you talking from many years of experience

.
I started racing in 1970

.

I had a vey very good racing season master cat 3 , all in 1st , 2nd ,3rd places and a 52k state TT CHAMP. 1ST PLACE

...

How was yours ?, All the best,
Ride hard, Musher

Musher,

I am astonished and overwelmed by your cycling curriculum

!. Really rare to find out there

I have been involved in cycling since the early 80´s.

About your "mastering" at hard training and physiological responses to exercise and competition I have a few questions for you: Have you ever seen and done physiological tests to study physiological parameters (VO2max, Lactate, Watts. W/Kg...) in a lab and on the field of world class cyclists?. Are you a Doctor?. Have you ever worked with Professional Cat 1 teams (Now called Pro Tour) travelling with them and working with them shoulder to shoulder 120 days/year and seing all kinds of physiological states?. HAve you ever worked wit Tour de France, Giro, Vuelta, Classics...etc winners?. Have you ever analyzed blood parameters both hematological and biochemical as well as oxidative stress markers and free radicals of cyclists to see/diagnose an overtraining state?. Well...I have for 11 years.
Not traying to offend but your last comment was not the most approapiate.

YOu asserted something about trainig hard as the way to go and I just asked if you ever thought about the possibility of overtraining...

Musher, Ride hard but also ride smart...Don´t get offended but the last part seems to be out of your training program....Maybe you are good and have an amazing cycling curriculum as you have....but maybe you could be just much better...All best.

07-12.-2007, 09:42 AM

#43

acoggan

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003

Posts: 2,588

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urkiola2

Have you ever seen and done physiological tests to study physiological parameters (VO2max, Lactate, Watts. W/Kg...) in a lab and on the field of world class cyclists?. Are you a Doctor?. Have you ever worked with Professional Cat 1 teams (Now called Pro Tour) travelling with them and working with them shoulder to shoulder 120 days/year and seing all kinds of physiological states?. HAve you ever worked wit Tour de France, Giro, Vuelta, Classics...etc winners?. Have you ever analyzed blood parameters both hematological and biochemical as well as oxidative stress markers and free radicals of cyclists to see/diagnose an overtraining state?. Well...I have for 11 years.

Have we met (in the virtual sense) before?

07-12.-2007, 10:37 AM

#44

tonyzackery

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: Seattle, WA/Vancouver BC

Posts: 386

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by musher

You must be a Pro.

, you doing all the talking and no learning

.Ric ????

you are so confuse you dont know how you anwsering,

,....bla bla bla........

Good one. You got me that time. In your spare time it would behoove you to open a 3rd grade English textbook.

You really do encounter all kinds on Cyclingforums - even in the same thread...from the anal retentive to the immature...oh well...you must take the good with the bad in any aspect of life...

08-12.-2007, 07:27 AM

#45

musher

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Cascades-Wenatchee WA

Posts: 124

Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyzackery

Bla ..blaaaa, blaaaa...

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