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Off-Season Intensity

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Old 04-12.-2007, 06:01 AM   #16
Urkiola2
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

First, I am not sure anyone prescribes a single gold-standard test and it is quite possible to establish training zones from a MAP test. However, with the possible exception of pure anaerobic activities, I disagree that cycling training should be all that different for the various events, although many make it so.[/QUOTE]
According to you, MAP Test is a maximum aerobic power test?. What do you exactely mean by that?.

I am not saying all activities of cycling are a complete different sport, I am just saying that without changing dramatically, the training for a persuit rider or cyclocross or TdF contestant should be more specific to his/her discipline. The same happenes in track and field. There are many subunites within the same sport like 100m, 200m, 1500m, 3000m, 20k, marathon...etc, which metabolically speaking could vary but they all belong to the same sport, track and field. The training of a 1500m is not the same as the traiining for a marathon runner...
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Old 04-12.-2007, 06:08 AM   #17
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST
except mitochondria are best trained at intensities around VO2max

ric

OK. Please explain your point in relation to my response with regard to establishing a base for a cyclist with a higher percentage of fast-twitch musle.

Thank you in advance for your response.
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Old 04-12.-2007, 06:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyzackery
LOL! Your comment makes me laugh. I know what I meant when I used the term, and I have an idea the OP knew what I meant when I used it as well. The fact that you are getting hung up on it is quite silly, IMO.

I am a recreational/competitive cyclist - I'm not a scientist. I am not required to support with scientific evidence any term that I use, thank you, nor do I need a scientist's permission to use the term. IMO, there are a great many users of this forum that fully understand the acronym FTP without your additional requirements.

Obviously the term gives you much consternation. It would probably be helpful for you to simply overlook it and its users...
Ok. I see you donīt get the point....never mind..I am just saying that things are flodded of terms that not even scientist can get to explain so imagine recreational cyclists....Things are more simple than what they look and I believe that there are way too many Acronyms annd many are confusing.

BTW, it also makes me laugh your "reprograming of mitochondria in the muscles" that you quoted earlier.... I suggest a new Acronym according to your Sillicon valley concept. I propose the new acronym called MMR (Muscle Mitochondria Reprograming). It sounds "cool" doesnīt it?.

" We need to train FTP to increse MMR (some have to do more LSD) according to the PDC so that our AEPF and AWC increases and we decrease our MAOD and achieve a NP state as we increase our MMP and NMP. However, it is very important to check for PMC and specially for RBC, Hgb, Hct, CK, LDH and GOT so that we donīt increase too much our TSS, RPE, ATL, CTL and HIT. Although if the latter happens it is recommended to go to your LBS so you can check for some problems in your CL and CPV which could have caused a VI and therefore disturb your TSB which could seriously interfere with our MMR and therefore with your FTP" ...Boy that was cool!, wasnīt it....?.
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Old 04-12.-2007, 07:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urkiola2
FTP is based on 1h or 40km TT. However I donīt see many metabolic explanations of why using that concept to prescribe a training program for a cyclist who has to do to do a 180km road race with 5 climbs.


You seem to be missing a key point: what I have proposed is that you can use what I have termed functional threshold power to establish training levels that describe the training that the vast majority of cyclists perform/need to perform (non-endurance track cyclists being a notable exception). While this also makes functional threshold power useful when actually prescribing training, the latter can obviously be much more complicated (though it needn't be).
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Old 04-12.-2007, 07:06 AM   #20
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urkiola2
BTW, Andy, and changing subjects. I am preparing a paper related to "crossover concept"


Then this might interest you (if you haven't already come across it):

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/do....1997.tb02713.x
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Old 04-12.-2007, 07:45 AM   #21
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyzackery
OK. Please explain your point in relation to my response with regard to establishing a base for a cyclist with a higher percentage of fast-twitch musle.

Thank you in advance for your response.
Off -Racing Season Intensity,
Training need to be structure for the duration of the competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their event .

Most studies show that it is more importante to maintain training intensity ( LT- VO2 max) than training volume.

Unless you are training for the " tour of california ", your Winter Base would be to focuse on "LT OR FTP " and some unstructures VO2max.

3 weeks before your firts race a VO2 flock will also help to increase your VO2max and your threshold .

Base New Definition:The Aerobic Engines www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm

Ride hard,Musher
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Old 04-12.-2007, 08:31 AM   #22
tonyzackery
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by musher
Off -Racing Season Intensity,
Training need to be structure for the duration of the competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their event .

Most studies show that it is more importante to maintain training intensity ( LT- VO2 max) than training volume.

Unless you are training for the " tour of california ", your Winter Base would be to focuse on "LT OR FTP " and some unstructures VO2max.

3 weeks before your firts race a VO2 flock will also help to increase your VO2max and your threshold .

Base New Definition:The Aerobic Engines www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm

Ride hard,Musher
I guess you're assuming I'm not training for longish race???

Anyway, thank you for your reply Ric Stern - oops, you're not Ric Stern. Regardless, I'll agree to disagree here. For my background - predominantly anaerobic and explosive sport events - LongSteadyMiles are what I need to build my base during the off-season. As the competitive outdoor racing season approaches, I'll add in the higher intensity training - not during the early winter months.

What's working for me may not work you, I'll leave it at that.

Last edited by tonyzackery : 04-12.-2007 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 04-12.-2007, 08:33 AM   #23
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by musher
Off -Racing Season Intensity,
Training need to be structure for the duration of the competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their event .

Most studies show that it is more importante to maintain training intensity ( LT- VO2 max) than training volume.

Unless you are training for the " tour of california ", your Winter Base would be to focuse on "LT OR FTP " and some unstructures VO2max.

3 weeks before your firts race a VO2 flock will also help to increase your VO2max and your threshold .

Base New Definition:The Aerobic Engines www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm

Ride hard,Musher

Musher;

Right on. Its also ok to throw in the occasional L6 workout. Oh, and none of this if its Tuesday it must be be A2 day for me. I have a handful of drills and I mixed them up based upon my mood, not a schedule. IMHO it is analyzing the workouts that is important, not planning them.
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Old 04-12.-2007, 08:34 AM   #24
tonyzackery
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urkiola2
Ok. I see you donīt get the point....never mind..I am just saying that things are flodded of terms that not even scientist can get to explain so imagine recreational cyclists....Things are more simple than what they look and I believe that there are way too many Acronyms annd many are confusing.

BTW, it also makes me laugh your "reprograming of mitochondria in the muscles" that you quoted earlier.... I suggest a new Acronym according to your Sillicon valley concept. I propose the new acronym called MMR (Muscle Mitochondria Reprograming). It sounds "cool" doesnīt it?.

" We need to train FTP to increse MMR (some have to do more LSD) according to the PDC so that our AEPF and AWC increases and we decrease our MAOD and achieve a NP state as we increase our MMP and NMP. However, it is very important to check for PMC and specially for RBC, Hgb, Hct, CK, LDH and GOT so that we donīt increase too much our TSS, RPE, ATL, CTL and HIT. Although if the latter happens it is recommended to go to your LBS so you can check for some problems in your CL and CPV which could have caused a VI and therefore disturb your TSB which could seriously interfere with our MMR and therefore with your FTP" ...Boy that was cool!, wasnīt it....?.

Kinda anal retentive, aren't ya? Anyway, I'm through with this pissing match. You're right, you've won. Satisfied now?
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Old 04-12.-2007, 08:51 AM   #25
Urkiola2
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by acoggan
Then this might interest you (if you haven't already come across it):

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/do....1997.tb02713.x
Andy, Thanks for the link. No I did not come across it. Thanks!. However, I am preparing a paper with a different approach to the Crossover concept. The crossover concept per se as we agree has some points that are unconsistent. However I am proposing a new approach to the crossover concept which at leat in terms of "metabolic efficiency diagnosis" I believe they can be promissing. I put the crossover concept to the test with a Pro Tour Team and the results were all over the place when comparing the physiological parameters as well as the performance parameters I could observe a few days later at training camp. However with the new approach I have, things make more sense. I am finishing writing it and will send it to you when I submit it so you can check it out. The problem with "crossover concept" is that the subjects used were college students and you know nothing about them so you miss comletely if they are good or bad metaboically speaking. With Top professionals I control their physiological parameters I can see who is better or worse and can have a better perspective with the "crossover" so that is why I changed and proposed a new approach.

Last edited by Urkiola2 : 04-12.-2007 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 04-12.-2007, 08:58 AM   #26
Urkiola2
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyzackery
Kinda anal retentive, aren't ya? Anyway, I'm through with this pissing match. You're right, you've won. Satisfied now?

No, sorry did not mean to be anal. I donīt think you are getting my point. Please donīt be offended since it is not my intention. I just want to show people that things in exercise physiology and training methodology are way easier than what they look or what they are traying to sell us through internet coaching pages, packages, etc. The whole bussiness is in making things more complicated than what they really are so that we all think that it is the "silver bullet". They flood us with acronyms sometimes hard to understand. However things are much easier than what they look. Even in Formula 1 or Indy formula with so many mechanisms taking into action there are not so many acronyms...I have worked for more 11 years with Top pros and teams here in Europe and believe me, things are easier than what it looks...

I was just being ironic about acronyms but that is the way I wanted to express my frustration against all the marketing going on. Some acronyms are necessary and done with good intentions. however some others just keep confusing people.
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Old 04-12.-2007, 09:06 AM   #27
Urkiola2
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by musher
Off -Racing Season Intensity,
Training need to be structure for the duration of the competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their event .

Most studies show that it is more importante to maintain training intensity ( LT- VO2 max) than training volume.

Unless you are training for the " tour of california ", your Winter Base would be to focuse on "LT OR FTP " and some unstructures VO2max.

3 weeks before your firts race a VO2 flock will also help to increase your VO2max and your threshold .

Base New Definition:The Aerobic Engines www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm

Ride hard,Musher

Have you ever thought about the assimilation of that training and possible overtraining from training so much and so long at FTP/LT or VO2max?....I have seen it in the "battle field" many many times and by May many people are quite overtrained....However since there are so many people in that condition many people will be racing under the same "underperformance" conditions.

We allways talk about how to scientifically train but barely talk about how to scientifically monitor overtrainig.
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Old 04-12.-2007, 09:12 AM   #28
Urkiola2
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by acoggan
You seem to be missing a key point: what I have proposed is that you can use what I have termed functional threshold power to establish training levels that describe the training that the vast majority of cyclists perform/need to perform (non-endurance track cyclists being a notable exception). While this also makes functional threshold power useful when actually prescribing training, the latter can obviously be much more complicated (though it needn't be).
Andy, I get the key point and that is why exactely I donīt agree with that. Specially when prescribing training zones in watts and/or acording to FTP. I believe it could be a very usefull and simple concept but I believe it does not fulfill what we are looking for. I am preparing a paper about power: I have the preeliminary results and I believe I can confirm my point. I know that I am not disclosing the data yet and it seems too pretentious to talk without data (which I recognize it is not correct) but I am very sure I will prove my point. The data I have is both with recreational athletes as well as with international level pros.

As I mentioned earlier I barely get into forums, but I have to recignize they hook you up. They are very good to exchange ideas, especially with talented and knowledgable people like you. I better log out before I get hooked!...
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Old 04-12.-2007, 10:24 AM   #29
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urkiola2
I just want to show people that things in exercise physiology and training methodology are way easier than what they look or what they are traying to sell us through internet coaching pages, packages, etc. The whole bussiness is in making things more complicated than what they really are so that we all think that it is the "silver bullet". They flood us with acronyms sometimes hard to understand. However things are much easier than what they look. Even in Formula 1 or Indy formula with so many mechanisms taking into action there are not so many acronyms...I have worked for more 11 years with Top pros and teams here in Europe and believe me, things are easier than what it looks...

I was just being ironic about acronyms but that is the way I wanted to express my frustration against all the marketing going on. Some acronyms are necessary and done with good intentions. however some others just keep confusing people.

I think if you gave these forums more than just a passing glance, you'd realize that many of the acronyms are used as 'internet shorthand' rather than cool scientific terms -- kinda like LOL is internet shorthand for "laughing out loud."

The discussions and concepts discussed here are not complicated, and Andy's work has done a lot to greatly simplify them. The people that follow these forums know that one person's LT is another's MLSS and that either correlates with FTP, but using the abbreviations over a detailed definition saves time typing.
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Old 04-12.-2007, 02:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: Off-Season Intensity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urkiola2
According to you, MAP Test is a maximum aerobic power test?. What do you exactely mean by that?
While the acronym may not necessarily accurately describe Maximal Aerobic Power (whatever anyone's interpretation of that is), it is a shorthand way of descibing the mean maximal 1-minute power from an incremental power ramp test to exhaustion using a protocol as defined by British Cycling and is used as a method to define power training levels and an objective means to establish a rider's progress (or not as they case may be). The definition and accompanying notes can be found here:
http://www.cyclecoach.com/pageID-news-Test_yourself.htm

Obviously the result is very protocol dependant. Since most that hang around here or on other power training forums understand that this is the protocol referred to when we use the term MAP, then it really doesn't matter what we call it. We can call it the BCF or the MinRamp or the Alex test for all I care .

What matters is that as long as the test protocol is adhered to, then the resulting MAP value can be used to defined training levels (ranges) that when also used with appropriate training protocols predominantly* target desired physiological adaptations (mostly aerobic adaptations such as endurance, increased muscle capilliarisation, increased muscle glycogen storage, LT and VO2Max, blood plasma volume, cardiac output) up to improving anaerobic work capacity.

* Of course training adaptations are not discrete to level - there is of course a continuum.

These aerobic and anaerobic abilities cover a large spectrum of racing demands and for the most part form the core of cyclists' training priorities.

Naturally in many events (e.g. crits, track racing, team pursuits, mtb) neuromuscular demands are higher than for say pursuiting or time trialling. No aerobic anchor point (such as MAP or FTP) can define training of these neuromuscular requirements (and nor do they purport to).

In terms of simplicity - then an easily repeatable test for anyone with a power meter with a well understood protocol which guides training levels and corresponding adaptations (as well as measuring training loads/stresses) is, to me at least, a very simple outcome from all the "mumbo jumbo acronyms" that may be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urkiola2
I am not saying all activities of cycling are a complete different sport, I am just saying that without changing dramatically, the training for a persuit rider or cyclocross or TdF contestant should be more specific to his/her discipline. The same happenes in track and field. There are many subunites within the same sport like 100m, 200m, 1500m, 3000m, 20k, marathon...etc, which metabolically speaking could vary but they all belong to the same sport, track and field. The training of a 1500m is not the same as the traiining for a marathon runner...
I would very much doubt that anyone here with any half decent knowledge of training is suggesting that a track pursuiter and a cyclocross rider would train the same way. Of course they have some common physiological demands but specificity of training to goal/target is a pretty well established and understood requirement.

That has been one of the great benefits of power meters in training - race demands and a rider's physiological characteristics and deficiencies can be better understood and training can be constructed accordingly.
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