Thanks, Dubya. $1,600,000,000,000

Colorado Ryder

You silly nitwit.....Everyone knows that Pope John Paul was responsible for defeating communism. Or thats what some have told us.

ndbiker

Silly me!

limerickman

America decided to get itself tangled in the Korea/Cambodia/Vietnam, through it's own volition.




Moot point as to what caused the failure of the Eastern block.
There are several reasons as to why the Eastern block failed.

Reagan wasn't the sole cause for the fall of the Eastern block.
A change of regime within the Soviet Union - where a much younger leader in the form of Mikhail Gorbachov was elected- was part of the reason.
Gorbachov wanted better relations with the entire world anyway.

Also there were strong civil rights movements in Hungary, Czechoslovkia which predated Reagans tenure.
And the very inadequacy of the Communist system itself - helped to bring down the Iron curtain.



Europe has faced and survived many threats throughout it's long history.
From the invasion of Ghenghis Khan, though the Cruscades, through to the Moors, through to the Ottoman Empire.
I believe that there is no doubt that Europe could and would have survived any threat from the Eastern block.




Ultimately sides negotiate.
You may not like to acknowledge that..........but they do.
You should know this from your own country's recent history.

Prior to 1939, negotiation was tried and it failed.
That happens sometimes.

Which begs the question, if your country was so concerned about tanks rolling around Europe, how come it took two years for your country to sign up?

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

How come your country NEVER signed up?

limerickman

Politically we maintained a neutral stance during WW11.

And, just like the British/French/Soviets, no one here has tried to talk up what my country did or didn't do during WW11 or any other time.


So can you or ND tell us why, if your lot were so concerned about tanks rolling round Europe, your country sat by from 1939-1941 while profiteering from both sides of the conflict?

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

Really! What about all that talk about the Irish contribution? Why don't you tell everyone why your government decided to remain neutral. Tell us all the honorable reason Ireland was neutral.

limerickman

How many time shave we been over this?

As a country, we remained politically neutral.
We remained neutral as we'd only attained independence within 18 yrs of the start of world war 2.
That simple.

150,000 Irish men joined the Allies during WW2.
Out of a population of 1.3 million people, that signifies a far higher contribution in terms of man power than say....the USA.

Now answer the question :

So can you or ND tell us why, if your lot were so concerned about tanks rolling round Europe, your country sat by from 1939-1941 while profiteering from both sides of the conflict?

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

We'll go over this as many times as necessary so that people will know that you are spinning the truth about Ireland and WW2. While we are at it please tell us why your PM was the only high ranking official to sign a condolence book after Hitler died. I'm sure he was sad that his only hope of attaining N. Ireland died with with Hitler.

limerickman

What?
Spinning the truth?

We remained neutral as stated earlier.
That's not spinning.




Our PM signed a book of condolence at the German embassy after the head of State of Germany (Hitler) died.
So what?


The same PM signed a book of condolence for King George when he died in 1953.
King George - the head of State of a country from who we only got independence after a terrible and bloody war.
So what?

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

So can you or ND tell us why, if your lot were so concerned about tanks rolling round Europe, your country sat by from 1939-1941 while profiteering from both sides of the conflict?

We're awaiting your answer.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

ndbiker

I like to believe we learned something else from WWII. Don't let petty despots get too powerful and if you draw a line in the sand mean it. There is a strong isolationist bent to Americans in general. It was much stronger in 1940 than today. Roosevelt had the will to get involved in the European war but did not have the backing of the congress or the people. After the two wars which started in Europe which we became a part of, I think the leaders of the past 65 years have realized we cannot stay out of such events. They have a way of drawing you into them. Ignore communism and it will flourish not because it's good or right but because it thrives on conquest. Ignore fascists and they will flourish because they too seek power. Today if we ignore terrorist they too will flourish. I have no problem with negotiation but your negotiations with Hitler failed because he was lying to you and when it became obvious you did nothing but continue to negotiate. Why did England feel it could negotiate with someone they knew would lie to them?

Which brings me to the present day. Do we trust Iran? Korea? China? North Korea? If we don't how can we effectively negotiate? Will ignoring these dictatorships be in the worlds best interest? Would you rather the US sit on the sidelines relatively unarmed and benign as they were during the 1930's while the world waits?

Colorado Ryder

the approaches which the southern Irish ports and airfields could so easily have guarded were closed by the hostile aircraft and U-boats. This indeed was a deadly moment in our life, and if it had not been for the loyalty and friendship of Northern Ireland, we should have been forced to come to close quarters with Mr. de Valera, or perish from the earth. However, with a restraint and poise to which, I venture to say, history will find few parallels, His Majesty’s Government never laid a violent hand upon them, though at times it would have been quite easy and quite natural, and we left the de Valera Government to frolic with the German and later with the Japanese representatives to their heart’s content.

Winston Churchill


After the end of the war, Hempel remained in Ireland and de Valera first resisted the return to Germany of arrested German agents, and then, at Hempel's request, the Irish Government opposed the outcome of the Nuremberg trials. Documents produced by the Department of External Affairs refused to accept the concept of a war criminal and compared the Nuremberg trials to the British use of the judicial system in Ireland against Nationalists.

The returning Irish volunteers returned to indifference or even hostility. On the whole they saw themselves as defending Ireland as well as Britain and supported Irish neutrality. However, after the end of the war, United States personnel were allowed to wear their uniforms in Ireland, but not those who had served in the British forces. In addition, the Irish government cancelled the Remembrance Day march. Special legislation was introduced so that the 4000 Irish soldiers who had deserted to Britain (most after there was any threat to Irish neutrality) suffered additional punishment on their return. Opinions in the Republic on the Irish volunteers remain somewhat divided and the issue remains sensitive for many. For many years they were not recognised by the Irish Government; however, in April 1995 Taoiseach John Bruton paid tribute to those who

volunteered to fight against Nazi tyranny in Europe, at least 10,000 of whom were killed while serving in British uniforms. In recalling their bravery, we are recalling a shared experience of Irish and British people. We remember a British part of the inheritance of all who live in Ireland.



It took till 1995 for the Irish government to recognize the Irish that did fight in WW2. Why did it take 50 years to recognize that?
Are you equating King George with Adolf Hitler?

limerickman

The outbreak of WW2, can be traced in part to the start/outcome of WW1.
WW started because several empires - British/French/German/Austro-Hungary/Russia - were all vying for power.
Europe was a powderkeg.

Following the Armistice, Versaille imposed gratuitous and draconian conditions
on Germany and the ordinary German person.
Remember WW1 derived because the people at the top in various countries
wanted pole position over other countries.
The ordinary German was as distanced from that situation as your or I.

Germany broke down and in turn this led to a vacuum and Hitler came to power.

In hindsight to negotiate with Hitler was immaterial.
But given the history, given the carnage of WW1 - is Chamberlin to be condemned?
Easy for us, now, to say that he was wrong to negotiate.

Should we trust Iran/Korea etc?
What basis do we have for not trusting them?

Have you tried viewing the situation from their perspective?
From an iranian perspective, for example?
You are familiar with Irans recent history?
How democratic elections in 1950's were overthrown by the CIA and how a ruler (the Shah) was imposed on Iran?
And you do know that the first country in Middle East in which a nuclear reactor was built was Iran, and that the US built that reactor for them?
You do know this?

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

Quite rich coming from a citizen of a nation that sat out the war. Sat out the war just to spite the British. Well done. Well done. Way to polish the Irish image.