Page 2 - Power quest

12-11.-2007, 01:35 PM

#16

daveryanwyoming

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,357

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

Correct.

This weekend's group ride generated 537 TSS points (90 miles, sub-6hrs) - based on a 165 FTP. So I guess it's pretty clear that my FTP is higher than 165. Peak 60m AP is 167w, NP is 188.

While I should be happy that I can plug 188 in as my FTP estimate, it means I'm gonna have to work a lot harder on the 2x20's. For low-end SST work, I'd have to sustain 165w (88% of FTP).

I thought sustaining 151w for 20m was tough. Now I know why Tyson labeled his thread "It's killing me."

Don't fret, all in all that's a good thing.

A lot of folks struggle to achieve the same power indoors on a trainer that they can regularly produce outside on the road. So don't get too frustrated if you can't sustain the target 165 watts or higher at first. With time and practice on the trainer you should be able to narrow the gap between indoor and outdoor levels but some folks do better at that than others. In the end you can only do what you can do so don't beat yourself up if it's not right up against your normal outdoor power levels.

Most folks, including Andy, have broadened the SST definition a bit. I was just discussing this off forum with Rick Murphy a regular here and on the wattage forums. I like a higher end definition of SST to differentiate it from old school LSD but I still include efforts down to 80% or so as long as they're held longer than the typical 20 minutes and definitely consider 85% efforts to fall into SST. I might target 30 minutes to an hour for those 85% efforts but they're still SST in my book.

Basically if your efforts get you breathing deeply and steadily and take concentration to finish but don't wipe you out before the target time then they're good aerobic core training and will help you raise your FTP. Stuff on the easier end should be held longer and stuff on the harder end should be held for at least 10 minutes per effort with longer being better but if it gets you breathing deeply and requires solid effort then it's good training.

Anyway, it sounds like you're on your way and I wouldn't be surprised if that FTP estimate of 188 continues to climb pretty fast over the next few weeks as you get accustomed to training indoors and putting out steady efforts.

Good luck and keep us posted,
-Dave

12-11.-2007, 10:14 PM

#17

NomadVW

Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Japan

Posts: 432

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

Correct.

This weekend's group ride generated 537 TSS points (90 miles, sub-6hrs) - based on a 165 FTP. So I guess it's pretty clear that my FTP is higher than 165. Peak 60m AP is 167w, NP is 188.

Quite simply, you're not doing real 537 TSS points. It's just not possible.

Let's assume you rode in exactly 6 hours (mileage doesn't matter). Your Intensity Factor (IF) would have to be .94 for the entire ride. If the critical power model has any validity at all, you're 6 hour power should be closer to low 80's% for an ALL OUT effort for the entire duration.

For a large percentage of us, on a normal training load - holding 94% for our 2x20's could be a hard day in the saddle.

Your FT is probably above 200, and maybe even around 220.

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13-11.-2007, 04:05 AM

#18

Lucy_Aspenwind

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 454

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by NomadVW

I just have a hard time reconciling your indoor trainer workouts of 150-160 W and those 5-6 hour rides you've noted that generate 400-550 TSS. Maybe you aren't used to the indoor trainer yet? Or perhaps you need a better setup in terms of cooling/fan, etc and that definitely makes a difference.

Another thing, you noted your cadence being over 105 RPM's? Is that your preferred cadence, or rather, what you use when riding outdoors? While power is power, if you are riding at a radically different cadence than you typically use then that might account for why you find the indoor work so hard.

Oh and TSS of 537? That really strikes me as being rather unrealistic. Not that I doubt you - I'm sure you did the ride and what not, but rather I think your estimated number/value for FT is way, way too low.

I've seen TSS values for mid-pack TDF riders on Alpine stages and even then, you are talking 300-400 TSS, but not 500+.

I'd up that FT estimate by a good bit. Like Nomad says, at least to 200 W, if not more.

Have you tried doing 2x20's outside on nice steady grade (sans lights, etc)? Something tells me you'd easily surpass your indoor figures and if you do, then you know the difference in power outdoors vis-a-vis indoors, is entirely based on environment, flywheel, etc.

Last edited by Lucy_Aspenwind : 13-11.-2007 at 04:14 AM.

13-11.-2007, 04:33 AM	#19
serpico7 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 73	Re: Power quest Thanks for the feedback, fellow forumites. Yeah, I realize that 500+ TSS points is highly unlikely (I appreciate your examples of why it is so unlikely), that's why I mentioned that it was calculated with a 165 FTP, which I noted probably needs to be bumped up. I figure I'll increase the FTP estimate to 188, which was my 60m peak NP during the ride; yes, this is conservative, but I'll keep moving it as more data from fast group rides is collected. And I was wiped at the end of the ride - couldn't do anything more than sit around (and eat) the rest of the day. Speaking of eating, on this ride, the PT is showing 2510kJ of work. It seems like I can take that to be a fair estimate of Calories burned. Holy ****! No wonder I can't seem to put on any weight. My indoor/outdoor cadence is pretty similar. My indoor riding is on rollers, not a trainer. I don't use a fan, but am near open windows (in the northeast, so it's pretty cold outside). I don't feel like I am overheating or that heat is holding me back. As Dave suggests, maybe it's a matter of getting used to pushing hard while on the rollers.

13-11.-2007, 05:37 AM

#20

daveryanwyoming

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,357

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

....My indoor riding is on rollers, not a trainer...

Do you have a resistance unit like one of the headwind fans on your rollers? I know I can't hold anywhere near my FTP on my rollers since they lack a resistance device. I spin out my biggest gears before I get up near my FTP and even though I'm not worried about falling off them it's still disconcerting to be riding over 35 mph in the kitchen. I'm sure rollers with a resistance unit make it easier to do L4 work, but I use a trainer for that and use the rollers for rest days and fun.

Quote:

I don't use a fan, but am near open windows (in the northeast, so it's pretty cold outside). I don't feel like I am overheating or that heat is holding me back. ...

As long as you're not dripping in sweat you're probably o.k., but I run a big fan with 16" blades in front of an open window and I'm living at altitude in Wyoming where 20 below zero farenheit isn't unusual and zero is typical. Yesterday I rode the trainer with that setup and it's not the dead of winter here yet, but it was in the 20's and snowing. The fan was bringing fresh snow into the room but I was plenty warm once the SST work was under way. I'll typically warm up with a T shirt on and the fan turned off and then kick on the fan after I'm warmed up and before I start the main workout. The T shirt usually comes off a few minutes into my first SST effort. And even with a setup like that I'll go through at least a water bottle per hour during SST work.

-Dave

13-11.-2007, 06:19 AM

#21

serpico7

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 73

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

Do you have a resistance unit like one of the headwind fans on your rollers?

No resistance unit. But during my last 2x20 (at 151w), I was still in the middle ring, but yeah, at some point, I'll need to add resistance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

Definitely sweating, and it is dripping off (dripping as opposed to pseudo-streaming), but I use a towel to wipe my face every few minutes. Now that my FTP estimate is considerably higher, I'll have to up my SST efforts, so I'll probably get quite a bit warmer. Given how much cooling you use, it sounds like I'll need a fan.

14-11.-2007, 05:01 AM	#22
kopride Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 373	Re: Power quest Good luck with your quest. I have been doing 2 x 20s as a fairly routine workout for a few months and have been seeing progress.

16-11.-2007, 01:33 PM	#23
serpico7 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 73	Re: Power quest Yesterday: 1x20 @ 151w AP Today: 1x20 @ 151w AP 1x20 @ 152w AP I'm starting to get used to hard efforts indoors on rollers.

17-11.-2007, 03:27 AM

#24

kopride

Registered User

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 373

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

Yesterday:
1x20 @ 151w AP

Today:
1x20 @ 151w AP
1x20 @ 152w AP

I'm starting to get used to hard efforts indoors on rollers.

Good job. We are on parallel quests. I think pounding it out on rollers is very tricky. But you will have great riding position to go along with your power numbers. I am going to do 2 x 20s for the next 6 weeks and see where I am with a one hour TT.

20-11.-2007, 09:31 AM

#25

Piotr

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: Draper, Utah

Posts: 393

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

Yesterday:
1x20 @ 151w AP

Today:
1x20 @ 151w AP
1x20 @ 152w AP

I'm starting to get used to hard efforts indoors on rollers.

There's a possibility that you're holding back considerably riding your rollers. Test your power outdoors. Do a 5 minute interval if you don't have the ability to go 20-30 min non-stop outdoors. Your FTP should be at least around 80% of that result. There's nothing magical or accurate about the 80% figure, but it will show you just how far off you might be in your FTP estimation.

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20-11.-2007, 12:02 PM

#26

serpico7

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 73

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr

Yeah, riding indoor on rollers has been somewhat limiting in terms of power output, but it's gotten easier as I've learned to focus on these longer intervals (20m indoors is an eternity to me) and become accustomed to pushing hard on rollers.

Interestingly enough, if I look at my MMP curve, 5m MMP is 235w. 80% of that is 188, which is the peak 60m NP observed on a fast group ride, and is the figure I'm currently using as my FTP estimate.

Today's workout:
1x20 @ 152w AP
1x20 @ 156w AP

Still at the very low end of SST, but I think I can bump up the power on these intervals a bit more over the next couple of weeks.

20-11.-2007, 12:27 PM

#27

daveryanwyoming

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,357

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

...Interestingly enough, if I look at my MMP curve, 5m MMP is 235w. 80% of that is 188, which is the peak 60m NP observed on a fast group ride, and is the figure I'm currently using as my FTP estimate...

Everybody's MMP curve is a bit different, but FWIW my 5 minute to FTP ratio in both last year and so far in this training year is roughly 86%.

Again the question comes up, have you specifically gone out and tried to put out a best effort for 5 minutes outdoors? A hard 5 minutes in the middle of a longer group ride isn't going to reflect your capabilities as you either are tired from the preceeding work, saving some energy for the rest of the ride or both.

I guess the roller based FTP test is valid as an estimate of what you can do on the rollers but I'd be very surprised if that reflects your FTP established outdoors under ideal conditions including sufficient: rest, warmup and motivation. FTP is defined to represent what you can do for ~ 1 hour under benign conditions as rmur17 likes to put it. Pulling a value from the middle of a long endurance ride or indoors while focusing on staying upright on the rollers without a resistance unit while spinning your brains out and without a lot of cooling hardly qualifies as benign conditions.

If it helps you set training levels then cool, it's useful as a representation of what you can do. But I suspect you're still selling yourself short in terms of FTP and simultaneously over estimating your TSS and CTL on the outdoor rides.

Are the outdoor rides pushing you to your limit occasionally? Do you get dropped and have to regroup after hard sections, especially longer climbs? If so I'd take a look at your histogram step down for the weekend rides and see what that tells you about FTP. But again, if you haven't pushed yourself hard and occaisionally too hard then it will still under estimate FTP.

Either way, your estimates are on the rise so you're moving in the right direction.

Stay with it, the numbers should keep getting better,
-Dave

20-11.-2007, 02:03 PM

#28

serpico7

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 73

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

No, I have not tried a 5m, 20m or 60m "best effort" ride outdoors. I guess the problem is a combination of logistics and motivation. The nearest place for me to do a proper "best effort" ride is far enough away that I wouldn't go out there just to do an interval, but am frequently out there on group rides. On fast group rides, I've got plenty of motivation, but as you note, I've both used energy before the effort and have to save some energy for the remainder of the ride.

Yes, the group rides tend to push me to the limit, as I do get dropped and have to regroup. As I get more of those rides recorded with power, I'll get a better histogram from which to guess at my FTP.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I found doing 1x20 @ 152 today only slightly more difficult than 1x20 @ 136 two weeks ago, and a big part of that improvement is simply from adapting to the 20m interval format (previously, all solo efforts had been recovery type rides, whether indoors or outdoors). I think I'll be able to continue increasing the interval efforts, and eventually hope to get within SST levels for my "true" FTP.

21-11.-2007, 12:58 PM	#29
serpico7 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 73	Re: Power quest Today's workout: 1x20 @ 154w AP 1x20 @ 159w AP Seems I'm always able to go harder on the second interval than I can on the first. Perhaps I'm not warming up sufficiently.

21-11.-2007, 01:34 PM

#30

Lucy_Aspenwind

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 454

Re: Power quest

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

Today's workout:
1x20 @ 154w AP
1x20 @ 159w AP

Seems I'm always able to go harder on the second interval than I can on the first. Perhaps I'm not warming up sufficiently.

You aren't alone in that

I always end up with higher power on my 2nd & 3rd set of intervals than the initial one. For me it isn't by accident as I'm very conscious of this tendency. Warming up could be part of it, but in any case, I like to 'ease' into the intervals (if that makes sense). It just feels easier on my body (and mind) to not go all out from the onset. Not a bad habit to do either for your TT'ing, if you partake in that type of racing.

Back to the intervals, I like doing the first one at 90% of FTP, then 95% for the 2nd, then maybe 100% for the third.

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