Power quest

serpico7

I recently got a powertap and have decided to start doing 2x20s to improve my FTP. Inspired by the likes of Tyson and his coach, RD, I'll post the data from my training rides. My estimate for current FTP is 152 (based on 95% * 20m TT avg of 160).

First session was yesterday:
1x20 @ 136 AP
1x20 @ 136 AP

It's near the low end of Coggan's SST (88-94% of FTP), but I was coming off a group ride where I racked up 448 TSS points two days earlier, so I figured I wouldn't kill myself on my first ever set of 2x20s.

The quest begins . . .

daveryanwyoming

An IF of .89 is plenty hard enough for SST work but I wonder if you're underestimating your current FTP. How long was that group ride that yielded 448 TSS? That sounds really high for a typical weekend group ride unless you rode a double century or something along those lines.

-Dave

serpico7

~75 miles with some very hard solo efforts when riding solo after the group ride. But I could be underestimating FTP by a little, since that was estimated on rollers, which from an earlier post, I know you're not a fan of for max effort testing. If my FTP estimate is low, I don't think it's off by more than maybe 5 watts because I can go very hard on rollers, especially now that I've built front bumpers onto them.

I have some fast group rides coming up over the next few weekends, so I should be able to get an estimate of FTP by looking at the wattage bins.

daveryanwyoming

How long did the 75 mile ride take? If it was an 8 hour or longer effort then your FTP estimate is pretty good but if it was a more typical 4 to 5 hour effort then you're almost certainly underestimating FTP and hence over estimating TSS.

To get a TSS of 448 on a 5 hour ride your IF would be ~0.95 and would be a smokin' 1.06 if you completed the 75 miles in 4 hours. It's pretty hard for most folks to sustain an IF over .8 or maybe .85 for a ride that long especially on a group ride with variable pacing and easier sections.
Yep, take a look at your histogram step down or NP for a hard hour or so of riding as a first cut and then you can refine that estimate during your normal training. You don't need to be dead on with your FTP estimate, but you want to be pretty close especially since you're paying attention to TSS and definitely if you also track CTL, ATL and TSB in the Performance Manager. But you don't need to do a lot of structured testing, just track your longer L4 efforts and bump your estimates up or down as necessary, you'll know soon enough if you've overestimated FTP and then you'll back off a bit.

Good luck,
Dave

Dietmar

Yeah, an FTP of 150 sounds more than a little bit anemic; with that kind of power, it is hard to imagine you would be able to keep up with anything other than a Sunday-afternoon ride with the kids...

Spunout

You have underestimated your FT.

Investigate the ride file and tell us the peak 1 hour Normalized Power for this ride. Bet is is more than 160 watts.

serpico7

A little under 5 hours, so yes, I'm probably underestimating FTP a little. But I'll keep bumping up my SST sessions bit by bit, and I'll probably have a good handle on FTP after a few fast weekend rides.

Correct. Peak 60m AP is 140 watts, NP is 165 watts, VI is 1.18. Does that mean my current FTP is 165 watts?

Also, the MMP curve, which includes 3 rides since getting the PT, shows 1hr power as 140 (I guess this is reflecting the AP for the peak 60m of the group ride in question).

daveryanwyoming

At least 165 watts and I'd guess quite a bit more. You could use your 1 hour NP directly as an FTP estimate if it was roughly as hard as you could manage for an hour(like a hard one hour crit) but since you did an additional 4 hours of riding that day it's very unlikely the hour in question represented a near maximal effort.

This is related to the answer above. MMP only shows what you've done so it will only reflect your FTP if you've gone out and done a dedicated max one hour effort on a well rested day. If you haven't gone as hard as you can for an hour then your FTP won't show up on your MMP curve. Folks get frustrated with the Power Profiling tool for the same reason, if you don't do a max effort for your target duration the tools and graphs have no way of knowing what you're capable of. You've got to actually do a one hour FTP effort on a good day to have it show up on that graph. I use Monod tests, Map tests and track my long intervals to estimate FTP but my actual FTP doesn't show up on my MMP curve until well into racing season when 40km time trials roll around.

Same thing for sprint power or one minute power or any other target duration. You won't see those appear on your graphs until you go out and really hammer out some efforts at those target durations.

I'd take a swag at your FTP being 175 to 200 watts based on what you saw during your long ride. That's just a guess, but it's easy to refine that estimate during your training.

-Dave

serpico7

Thanks Dave and everyone else for the feedback. To be conservative, I upped the FTP estimate to 165. Yes, it might be higher, but figured I'd start conservatively, so I don't get burned out by these 2x20 intervals.

Today's workout:
1x20 @ 146w AP
1x20 @ 146w AP

I'll keep an eye on 60m peak NP from the weekend group rides and note if it is ever higher than 165w.

The plan, at the moment, is to do 3 days of 2x20 @ SST power, and the fast weekend ride, which should get me plenty of minutes (maybe too many) at L5-7.

Sillyoldtwit

Ah sweet memories! Tyson

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Lucy_Aspenwind

Congratulations on your newly started wattage quest.

I'm glad the others mentioned that you'd underestimated your FT. In most places, a 448 TTS ride in < 5 hours might well be known as a stage of the tour de france!

The great thing about the trainer and doing 2 x 20's is that the whole program is largely self-correcting as far as FT. If you greatly under/over-estimate your FT, then it shows readily in the way you do your 2 x 20's. Getting better and being productive on the trainer is definitely a skill. It has taken me a while to find the right balance of effort, frequency, duration, intensity, not to mention sanity...

One thing about that fine lad Tyson is, he's not only very dedicated and shown a great deal of perserverance, but he's a rather genetically talented fellow as well. In short, don't let yourself get caught chasing numbers or a number. Gains come easy at the onset but later things get harder.

If you are too focussed on a certain wattage or number, you are almost certainly going to be disappointed eventually. Read through Tyson's post(s) and you'll see that even he found the going got tougher. As someone once told me, avoid getting into a pattern of 'trainer olympics' where you basically attempt to do every session at a higher wattage than the prior one.

Anyway, good luck and keep up with your progress.

serpico7

Yes, I'll keep that in mind. I don't have any particular wattage goal in mind. I'll just keep training and let the numbers fall where they may.

Today's workout:
1x20 @ 151w AP
1x20 @ 151w AP

This is starting to get really tough. On the second interval, I was checking the time much more frequently, and my average cadence dropped from 107 in the first to 102 in the second.

I noticed that the PT shows AP for both intervals as 150, yet in Cycling Peaks, it shows as 151. Any clues as to why that is?

Alex Simmons

This is normal. The PT CPU does an average on the run - the algorithm is designed to save CPU memory/resources and it ends up underestimating slightly, no more than 1-2 watts usually. The Cycling Peaks number is the correct number.

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Sillyoldtwit

What can I say?!?! I loved the fine LAD bit. When you're on the road to 66, to be called a lad is quite a compliment. May I return the compliment Lucy, by saying you're a fine wee lassie.
Not so sure about the rather genetically talented bit - but if you say so.
And yes Serpico, the going does get tougher. The hardest bit for me is the stress on the old quads. Towards the end of a 300 watt interval, I'm sure the quads are going to burst through the flesh to reveal red chunks of piping hot meat.
But as Lucy said, dedication and perseverance are the keys. To these I might add a realistic goal which you bring to the forefront of your mind when the interval gets tough. And believe me, at the higher wattages I just couldn't do it without my MP3 player. I find that when the cadence is starting to drop off (psychological), if a track that I particularly like appears, the adrenalin flows - the cadence picks up and I add a smile, thinking you were idling, now keep going to the end of this track. If 2 or 3 good tracks come one after another, there's no stopping me.
You don't mention HR, so I assume you're not watching it. If you are, you could be severely limiting yourself. I cover the heartrate display up until I've finished an interval to watch how quickly it falls.

Keep at it - you'll get there. Tyson

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