Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Carrera

Hmmmmm, Japan, Sweden?? Japan was very centrally planned when the economy was so dynamic, especially in the eighties.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

Lately Americans have been losing their freedom and it's the same in the U.K. Also there has been censorship in America for some time which I found about when I read a book by M Gorbachev. He pointed out that the Russian perspective on the Cold War or books on the Russian perspective were banned in the U.S. press. Americans never had the opportunity to read both sides of the conflict. I also seem to recall anyone entering America had to declare they weren't a communist? That struck me as weird from the freedom perspective as well as the fact that, when all is said and done, millions of Russian died fighting Hitler and liberated the concentration camps.
What Americans never understood were the conditions that led to communism too. Russia under the Tsars had huge populations of peasants and impoverished workers while the Tsars and bourgeoisie lived very well. As Mr K once stated, in Dickensian England the people never had the heart or resolve to do something about their situation so remained exploited and impoverished. The Russians and French did rise up and changed their situation for the better.
Of course, that was another time and capitalism in most countries has accepted welfare and reform so there are no more workhouses. Workers now have better conditions for the time being so revolution isn't half as likely. Plus, those changes were forced by the communist threat.
The reason communism lost out really was due to living standards and, above all, the fact capitalist countries were able to solve the issues that gave rise to Leninism by improving economies and welfare, plus trade unions.
Incidentally, when Russia did embrace capitalism I think they were looking more at Sweden and France as a role.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

A couple of years ago I read a book by an American economist who specialised in Russian affairs. His theory was interesting. He pointed out that at the time of the collapse of Gorbachev and, despite the queues for food and economic ills, the Russian economy was really quite strong compared with under Yeltsin. Taking a look at all the data, he concluded Russia had serious economic problems but nothing so serious as to cause outright collapse.
The actual fall of Gorbachev apparently happened from above, according to this analyst. Chiefly, Russian leaders didn't see the point in spending billions of roubles on missiles in a situation where the differences they had with the West were no longer so extreme as back in the Stalin days. Russians wanted to spend more money on the domestic economy and reform the entire system, hence perestroika.
The key issue is the fragmentation of Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia which caught the military off guard and caused the whole Communist Party to split. So, everybody got caught off guard. Yeltsin being an opportunist saw his chance and pushed Gorbachev out before Gorby knew what was going on.
Putin would seem to be Russian answer to the chaotic Yeltsin period and the idea now is to capitalise on the rich oil resources, commercial rocket technology and big business.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

What you refer to is indeed worrying. Anyone with some sort of critical perspective can see democracy and freedom in the U.S. has taken a battering over the last decade or so. 9/11 was a major factor but even prior to 9/11, democracy in the U.S. has been under threat.
The most worrying situation you hear about is the so-called rendition where suspects are removed to other countries and abused outside of Europe or the U.S. but effectively as part of a State Policy. To my mind, such abuse of fundamental human rights is a major international crime that might as well be taking place on home territory. It amounts to the same thing. No trial or solid evidence - just suspicion.
The problem is it becomes almost impossible to lecture China or Russia on human rights when the Russians and Chinese know only too well how these governments are being run, condoning torture and denying judicial trials. Even Putin gave a speech where he stated the U.S. had been totally disregarding international law and conducting a campaign of imperialism.
Look at the consequences of this too. It only just caused an upset in the Australian elections with John Howard being booted out for another candidate who wishes to remove Australian troops from Iraq.
The U.S. seems to be making the same mistake as Communist Russia - not respecting and upholding basic human rights and losing allies as a result. That's why today Poland and Hungary are still suspicious of Russia.
These days Europe is the only place where freedom and democracy is respected in theory whereas China, America and Russia seem to set a poor example.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Crankyfeet

Again you get the logic twisted. All communist States are centrally planned does not equal All centrally planned States are communist. The former statement was mine. The poster I was referencing was stating the opinion that Russia could have succeeded in its communist endeavour if it had been able to digress away from being centrally planned.

Even though I'm struggling with your definition of Japan and Sweden being centrally planned. IMO It is a gray area rather than a black or white definition in their case. Some things in those countries are centrally planned....some things aren't.

However communist countries were entirely centrally planned. It was part of the definition of communism. It was very black and white.

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

Carrera

There were a lot of defects of the communist and East German system but now I can see there are similar faults in Europe and the U.S. If you look at the whole picture, you can see how the communists got things wrong and how the capitalists are also getting things wrong.
You could go on and on about the mistakes made by communists. I mean, at first Krushchev appeared promising for the Soviet Union with his approach to agriculture and the virgin lands. Mr K managed to produce a whole bumper harvest of corn in the Ukraine and really get the ball rolling. However, Russian history went on to judge Mr. K as a failed, hasty and impulsive leader. He even nearly caused WW3.
Brezhnev was looked upon more respectfully and, in fact, the USSR was doing pretty well at that period before it started to stagnate and dry up under Andropov and Chernenko.
In the west, believe it or not, the same situation is happening. This is my view, right or wrong. I view the west as on the way to stagnation and being too complacent. America seems to be losing its democracy and moral high ground by compromising values it adhered to even during WW2. Europe is being run by too many idealists and I get the feeling we're going to see increased nationalist conflicts within member states - as always happened in European history.
I do feel very optimistic for China. Seems like China is really getting things right so China could be like one huge version of Japan. China is already producing more science grads than any other nation, Russia and the U.S. included. It's relying on manufacturing as the back bone of its economy as the U.S. did back in the fifties.
However, I may be wrong.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

9202

Whoa,

What planet did you get off of. Of course a sheriff is not beyond prosecution. But to say that these people are regional dictators, and chain gangs are comprised if disadvantaged people is beyond belief.

What you espouse is left wing socialist nonsense, just as bad as the right wing extremists.

Documentaries are a tool for the film maker to tell a story the way he want's it to be seen. If you watch a documentary and unconditionally believe the film makers view as fact, then you need to open your eyes and your mind.

This is whole discussion is short sighted and unbelievable. Self perpetuating closed minded nonsense.

Crankyfeet

Um..as much as I may not disagree with your views on media documentaries...I think you are ironically the one displaying close-mindedness.

Carrera may have a different viewpoint but he gives me the impression he hasn't made up his mind on everything for the rest of his life like you seem to have.

In any case, why join a discussion forum, if you don't want to discuss/debate anything? Unless you just want to pat backs with people who think the same as you do.

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

9202

Man, what a piece of work you are. Rewriting history, economics, and an expert on US freedoms.

Give me a break!
Not worth the time or effort to even read.

Carrera

Hmmm, I don't see the problem. This sheriff is known worldwide. I've even seen him interviewed on T.V. I see no way of defending him or his prisons. I'll admit I may have come on strong in the original post but that was probably because I was annoyed after having seen the documentary.
If this dude isn't a regional dictator who's exhibiting marginalised people in chain gangs then what is he?
This has to be one of the few individuals I hear of who even makes Saddam Hussein look like Mary Poppins.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

nns1400

Carerra, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. They aren't "marginalized people" he rounded up off the street, they're criminals for one thing. And to compare his "harsh" jails where they have to live in a tent, wear pink underwear and eat baloney, and even work in a chain gang, is nothing compared to Saddam Hussein...surely you've seen a documentary about him sometime or other haven't you?

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Why not go out on a limb? That's where the fruit is. Mark Twain

Carrera

Well, that's your choice to choose simply not to read. Personally I think there's been so much talk of democratic societies that respect human rights it's simply become accepted as fact. No questioning or looking at the overall picture.
You have to see the otehr side in life and put yourself in the situation of those people who choose to live a different way.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

Hmmmm, the Saddam comment was intended as a bit of light humour. It wasn't meant to be taken quite so literally.
I think from what I saw some of the people in that jail were pulled up for stuff like prostitution or drugs. Some times it was major crime and some times petty crime.
This argument about crime has been going on for many years. Let me share one simple fact I can vouch for:
The area where I reside has high crime. I've been a victim of such crime myself, including an attempted assault not too long ago. Plus the stolen bike. I don't really have a good deal of time for folks who steal bikes or cause problems but, at any rate, we have crime where I live.
Now, back in the seventies, there was far less crime. I recall it quite well. In the fifties, before I was born, crime was virtually unknown and guys opened doors for ladies on buses e.t.c. I know because my gran was born at the turn of the century and remembered the fifties well.
What changed to bring about all this crime? Did people somehow change or did society change? If you choose the second option, the question begs to be asked: How then can we get eliminate crime? By social reform or the methods in Arizona I raised ages ago in this thread (that somehow resurfaced after many months )
Myself, I think you have to address the root causes is what I'm saying. That means family units, reasonable discipline and employment/educational opportunities.
So I still think that sheriff is a dinosaur!!

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

Appreciated and thanks. If it helps, I decided to tone down my act since I last wrote that post, although sometimes my posts included a touch of black humour - the idea being to shock people into thinking a few things over.
My intention isn't to deliberately offend so I'd probably have worded that original post a little differently in hindsight.
Also, what would John Lennon have had to say? He started a national protest movement to support the guy who was jailed for 10 years after being caught with dope, during the Vietnam protests. Lennon raised hell and even wrote a song about the guy's situation.
I'll bet he'd coin a song about that Arizona sheriff too!

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."