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Russia tests world's biggest bomb

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Old 27-11.-2007, 02:53 PM   #61
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Originally Posted by sogood
Those aging Yank cold warriors will still call them communists.

The fact is, the communist party was able to rebuild the country from a weakling (in early 20th century) to that of a world power house. The fact that communism suited the early phase of country's development and was able to transition appropriately in recent decades is worth quite something.

Unless you're one of the millions of dead people....
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Old 27-11.-2007, 03:45 PM   #62
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Unless you're one of the millions of dead people....

Multiple millions died in natural and man-made disasters, civil wars and during the Japanese invasion prior to the revolution. As a matter of fact, it's not uncommon for a million or more to die in old China when natural disasters hit. So a million death in the history of China is almost like a drop in the bucket but is a number that's incomprehensible for Western countries. And as much as there's turbulence along the way, the communist party did keep China together and dug it out of a slum.

In comparison to western world events in the 21st century, the number of Iraqis civilian deaths attributable to American's illegal invasion of Iraq since 2003 has been estimated to be at 665,000. Add up all the direct war death, it's getting pretty close to that million death mark too, all just under five years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6101001442.html

Explain that! There's no moral high ground for Americans at this point in time.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 05:26 PM   #63
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Originally Posted by sogood
Multiple millions died in natural and man-made disasters, civil wars and during the Japanese invasion prior to the revolution. As a matter of fact, it's not uncommon for a million or more to die in old China when natural disasters hit. So a million death in the history of China is almost like a drop in the bucket but is a number that's incomprehensible for Western countries. And as much as there's turbulence along the way, the communist party did keep China together and dug it out of a slum.

In comparison to western world events in the 21st century, the number of Iraqis civilian deaths attributable to American's illegal invasion of Iraq since 2003 has been estimated to be at 665,000. Add up all the direct war death, it's getting pretty close to that million death mark too, all just under five years.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6101001442.html

Explain that! There's no moral high ground for Americans at this point in time.
One of the big differences is you can have your say, like you are here, and criticize America, which is fine, and you can live in America. If you do the same thing in China, ie. live there and criticize the Chinese government as a Chinese citizen, then you get thrown into the Chinese legal system, which works like this: You're a counter-revolutionary...you're dead.

BTW...I've lived in China for 4 years...in case you think I am just shooting my mouth off.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 05:43 PM   #64
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
Quote:
Originally Posted by sogood
Those aging Yank cold warriors will still call them communists.

The fact is, the communist party was able to rebuild the country from a weakling (in early 20th century) to that of a world power house. The fact that communism suited the early phase of country's development and was able to transition appropriately in recent decades is worth quite something.

Nope. The last ten years have provided a nice comparison. The pace of economic development in China is light years beyond what it was before they transitioned to a market economy. We can only wonder what China might have been like today if they had spen the last fifty years with a capitalist system.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 05:53 PM   #65
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Originally Posted by Crankyfeet
One of the big differences is you can have your say, like you are here, and criticize America, which is fine, and you can live in America. If you do the same thing in China, ie. live there and criticize the Chinese government as a Chinese citizen, then you get thrown into the Chinese legal system, which works like this: You're a counter-revolutionary...you're dead.

Of course, of course. Invasion, secure oil resource and mass murder in a foreign country are perfectly acceptable as long as one has that domestic freedom of speech and be able to keep driving that fuel guzzler around. After all, it was a democratically elected government so it's perfectly legit to act in the self interest of the US of A.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 05:53 PM   #66
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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What part of today's China is communist? The fact that it is run by the Communist Party. China has privatised most of its state-owned industries, has thriving stock markets in Shanghai and Hong Kong, and has some of the world's richest businesspeople within it. As you said, China has a history of global trade before the communist takeover, and over the last 20 years has been slowly edging back towards a full market economy.

Seems to me that China is closer to fascism than communism these days. The nationalism combined with growing economic power and a severe inferiority complex is likely to cause problems in the future. I would not want to be living in Taiwan after the 2008 Olympics, especially as American power and will wanes.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 05:58 PM   #67
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Originally Posted by Bro Deal
Nope. The last ten years have provided a nice comparison. The pace of economic development in China is light years beyond what it was before they transitioned to a market economy. We can only wonder what China might have been like today if they had spen the last fifty years with a capitalist system.

+1.. Everyone here seems to be looking at Russia and China today and saying that their current state is the product of a communist system. Try looking at the USSR and China in 1985, before they opened themselves up to the world and became virtual free-market economies, as a true benchmark for communist achievement.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 06:00 PM   #68
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Originally Posted by sogood
Of course, of course. Invasion, secure oil resource and mass murder in a foreign country are perfectly acceptable as long as one has that domestic freedom of speech and be able to keep driving that fuel guzzler around. After all, it was a democratically elected government so it's perfectly legit to act in the self interest of the US of A.
Are we discussing the merits of communism here, or which country we like best? Or the Iraq war?

I thought it was about whether communism is a good system for a nation to adopt or not.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 06:06 PM   #69
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Originally Posted by Bro Deal
Nope. The last ten years have provided a nice comparison. The pace of economic development in China is light years beyond what it was before they transitioned to a market economy. We can only wonder what China might have been like today if they had spen the last fifty years with a capitalist system.

You wouldn't take such a simple view if you knew what China was like before the Communist take-over. After close to 40 years of civil war, foreign domination, Japanese invasion, the infrastructure was shot along with gross corruption by the KMT. When the KMT retreated to the province of Taiwan, the national reserve of gold along with all the national treasures were shipped out at the same time (reason why you can see more Chinese treasures in the Palace Museum in Taipei than on the Mainland). Add in the Korean War, Cold War, Western blockade, it was in no shape to develop economically. The pace of development evolved at a steady pace since the establishment of the diplomatic relations with Western countries in the early seventies. The gradual transition gave stability to the process (as opposed to what happened to the USSR).
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Old 27-11.-2007, 06:10 PM   #70
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Originally Posted by Bro Deal
Seems to me that China is closer to fascism than communism these days. The nationalism combined with growing economic power and a severe inferiority complex is likely to cause problems in the future. I would not want to be living in Taiwan after the 2008 Olympics, especially as American power and will wanes.

The war talk is only there being beefed up by Western govt and media. It's also there to feed Western perspective of the issue and give Fox TV something to sensationalize on. If you really understand Chinese, there won't be a war there. The simple economic string is much much stronger than any missiles if a resolution is required. Time is on the side of the mainland.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 06:16 PM   #71
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Originally Posted by Crankyfeet
+1.. Everyone here seems to be looking at Russia and China today and saying that their current state is the product of a communist system. Try looking at the USSR and China in 1985, before they opened themselves up to the world and became virtual free-market economies, as a true benchmark for communist achievement.

No. Communism suited the particular social, political and economic environment of China in those pre-revolutionary days. And as turned out, communism was a transition route for the country. Without that process, China has probably already got carved up by the various powers and at the mercy of foreign powers. Note here that there's no implication that communism suited other specific countries. At the end of the day, what's best for each country has to be tailored to its specific conditions.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 06:18 PM   #72
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Are we discussing the merits of communism here, or which country we like best? Or the Iraq war?

I thought it was about whether communism is a good system for a nation to adopt or not.

What's best for one country is not necessarily best for another.

The title of the thread is actually about world's biggest bomb. Your thought on communism being the thread topic was wrong.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 07:19 PM   #73
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Originally Posted by sogood
What's best for one country is not necessarily best for another.

The title of the thread is actually about world's biggest bomb. Your thought on communism being the thread topic was wrong.
I wasn't talking about the thread title...I was talking about your response to an argument about the merits of communism where you went into a diatribe about US actions in Iraq. It seemed totally off the point to me.

But there's some good stuff in your above posts.....you do know something about the subject.

Having lived in Asia for 12 years, including four years in China, I concur with some of your sentiments....not that living there really entitles one to any great understanding.

The key to China's success however is less to do with the system IMHO, and more to do with the Chinese culture of hard work, business acumen, and a materialistic bent. The dragon has been unleashed and its awful hungry. But not a threat to world peace.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 09:06 PM   #74
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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I wasn't talking about the thread title...I was talking about your response to an argument about the merits of communism where you went into a diatribe about US actions in Iraq. It seemed totally off the point to me.

Having lived in Asia for 12 years, including four years in China, I concur with some of your sentiments....not that living there really entitles one to any great understanding.

The key to China's success however is less to do with the system IMHO, and more to do with the Chinese culture of hard work, business acumen, and a materialistic bent. The dragon has been unleashed and its awful hungry. But not a threat to world peace.

Just showing that threads do drift and this thread is not a static discussion on one topic. Pretty natural on this forum.

Well, in terms of a country's success, I think that there's not one system that works for any particular country. As long as the particular chosen system has flexibility and is tuned to the needs of the country at any time point, then it'll work and let its citizens flourish. I guess this is the pragmatic way of governing, one that doesn't depend on some hard ideology. The irony is that while China's government went for pragmatism, the US leaders (Bush et al) turned into hard ideologues.
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Old 27-11.-2007, 09:18 PM   #75
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Default Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb
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Originally Posted by Crankyfeet
What part of today's China is communist? The fact that it is run by the Communist Party. China has privatised most of its state-owned industries, has thriving stock markets in Shanghai and Hong Kong, and has some of the world's richest businesspeople within it. As you said, China has a history of global trade before the communist takeover, and over the last 20 years has been slowly edging back towards a full market economy.


The Communist Party runs every part of Chinese life, Crank.
Big business has flourished in China - but for anything to get done in China, you need to get documentation signed by the Party official.
Even simple things like getting a letter of credit from a bank in China requires the documentation to be stamped by the Party official.
The Party authorises who can trade within China, the regional Party officials have the power to allow/disallow commerical transactions.

Tim Clissolds book "Mr.China" is a good read - it tells the story of how commerce works under party rule in China.



Quote:
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Lim, do you think that you were meeting a normal Russian when you conversed with your Russian international business connections? In any case, the USSR may have done really well in educating their children in math and engineering.


The russians that I have met are either engineers/accountants or business managers?
Are they ordinary russians? I would suggest that they are, just like you and me.


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Entrepreneurial spirit and a system where everyone gets the same piece of the pie irrespective of risk or effort are mutually exclusive. You can't have your cake and eat it. Where was this entrepreneurial spirit in the 50's, 60's and 70's? ........Downtrodden.

Um ....Centrally planned economy is the central thesis of communism....Move political policy away from that and you are not a communist country aymore.


There was no allowance for the entrepreneurism under communism in USSR.
But I never argued that the commercial system under communism worked.
What I did advocate was the scandinavian economic model.
For example, Norway discovered oil off her coast 25 years ago.
Norway, rightly, decided that this antinal resource should be benefit of it's people and not be allowed to be utilised by the private sector.
To this end, she created the state oil company, Statoil, and has developed the oil resources found of her coast.
All profits from those oil revenues go to Norway.
In addition because of the huge revenues, Norway has also created one of the largest pension funds in the world for all her citizens.
Those funds have been invested and have reaped further wealth which is distributed to all it's citizens also.
This for me illustrates how goverment should operate : looking after all citizens is the primary duty of goverment and the economic model of scandinavia ensures that this is so.

To a lesser extent, most western european countries hold that all citizens should have free health care, free education, good social welfare policy that pays benefits to those less fortunate.
To me, that represents an enlightened society and as a tax payer (41%), plus
social welfare tax (6.75%), I am more than happy to pay my taxes to this type of support this system.
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