Russia tests world's biggest bomb

11ring

Interesting post.

I think the Russian economy suffered different problems than the market economies but for the same reason- it was a class system. When you had a ruling class of officials sending orders to middle managers and workers who had no say over and little reward for their efforts you ended up with the hording, sabotaging production, stealing etc.

What real socialism and what Lenin advocated was democratic planning, in the words of Lenin "Every cook will govern".

Whereas Stalin took this and said "Every cook will get 500 chickens, 2 cows, 7000 potatoes, 9 pots 2 pans and 14 knives, and make 9000 meals per year".

Just bought a great book Farm to Factory:A Reinterpretation of the Soviet Industrial Revolution, By Robert C. Allen. Available from Princeton Uni Press.

Through extensive economic modelling, Allen builds the case that the NEP period of a market in goods combined with soft budget planning was, with a bit more patience, capable of growth comparable to the plan periods but without the famines, hardships etc.

But the main argument, which is again shown through economic modelling, is that without planning the Russian industrial revolution would not have occured and growth rates would have stagnated and even at stages gone backwards as falling grain prices would have hit a capitalist economy very hard in the 30's.

The argument is that the plans were an attempt to force industrialisation to even greater speeds than the NEP period, but that the worst excesses of Stalin were economically destructive and unecessary.

Overall, it gives us a picture of the sort of society that could have been created if Lenin or Trotsky were in charge, although the problems of isolation and backwardness in the original economy would have still meant that the original surplus needed to spur growth would have had to come from very limited levels of consumption.

Regarding China and Russias differing economic fortunes, Russia took the neoliberal medicine (poison) and China didn't, and in fact kept a strong element of planning.

wolfix

Isn't it Iran that executes or hangs gay??????
Sounds real progressive to me..........



Iran needs major weaponary. It's been a few years since Europeans have had a neighbor to worry about......
But you will soon have Putin with aspirations again.......... The only thing worse then a Russian wanting your land is a German........ But even Germans are misunderstood........I don't believe that Germans want all the land, they just want the land on the other side of their borders.

Here is the states when we get invaded by neighboring countries, we put them to work in the fields and resturants.

__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."

Carrera

I think Stalin did O.K. as a military leader but as an agriculturalist he wasn't so good.
The funny thing about Lenin is most people assume he was wrong about capitalism being self destructive. For example, immigration: I read in the papers that the U.K. has benefited economically from the thousands of immigrants who are arriving from Romania, Poland and the East as a whole. You could argue for and against that claim but I suspect it may be true as immigrant workers come here with a greater desire to escape the poverty trap so they work hard.
But here is the huge blunder the Government is making and specifically where the flaws of capitalism show their spots: I heard a Labour spokesman say on T.V. that so long as the government can look at the figures and see economic growth, it makes no difference at all who does the work. Their argument is so long as the factories are being manned and profit is rolling in, so what?
What they fail to see in the long term is that at some point, the economies of Poland and Romania will take off and catch up. At that point, many of these workers will return to their homelands and families. This will leave us with a significant remianing population of unskilled or semiskilled Britons, many of whom have remained unemployed since immigrant workers usually take lower wages. Thus, wages are lowered somewhat. Unemployment is rising.
And also we will lack a home grown trained, educated workforce similar to China's and India's populations since China is sending far more students to university than we are. India likewise has a vast army of skilled I.T. employees.
The average Briton has to pay thousands of dollars for an education whereas in China it's not so. And if the average Briton doesn't pay, the Government figures it can simply import skilled workers from overseas.
At some point the bubble is going to burst and the pool of willing migrant workers will dry out when the global economy levels out.
I'd also point out that China has overtaken the economies of Italy, France and the U.K. without relying totally on imported migrant labour and China is spending billions on education and skills for the Chinese population. China has no fears its skilled workers may disappear and reappear at random on a market basis. It's developed a home grown labour force and invested in up-to-date technolgies, skills and education.
We're being overtaken because Governments over here are too profit-orientated and discard socialism entirely.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

limerickman

I'd check the facts about Iran and the execution of homosexuals before posting misleading statements like you did above.
Iran doesn't execute people because they're homosexual.
FOX news misled you on that issue.

I oppose all state executions, of whatever nationality.

To be fair, Iran is a reasonably progressive society. Fair distribution of wealth throughout the country, good education system, good medical system with access to care for all citizens.
Obviously there are areas in which Iran is not as progressive, like womens rights, tolerance of other religions, etc.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Wurm

Please Lim, let's not let the facts stand in our way when it comes to demonizing other cultures.

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The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.

Gus Riley

Property Rights here in Illinois = The Right to pay far more taxes!!

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wolfix

Iran has executed people because they are gay.
That has been reported before Fox news ran it..... Four years ago I attended a university function where a Iranian homo was one of the speakers. It is common knowledge that there have been gays executed [hung] for no crime but their homosexuality.
It has been reported in many liberal publications and recently there was a interview on NPR.
There has been a Canadian documentary that details several executions.
And one step beyond that....... We had a homosexual Iranian who was a customer at my bar. He spoke of this at least 5 years ago. He was afraid to tell his parents in Iran he was dying of AIDS because of the reprucussions that they might face.

__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."

sogood

Was the execution for for other crime or for being gay specifically. I'd be guarded with those stories told by so called dissidents. Look what info the Bush admin got from the Iraqi dissidents prior to the war. Total BS.

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limerickman

Wolf - putting this sort of stuff out and proclaiming it as factual is dangerous
and incorrect.

There were people executed in Iran - they weren't executed because they were gay.
The people concerned with charged with a crime under Iranian law.
There is no law against homosexuality on the statute books of Iran.

I'm not stating that what those people were charged with was equitable.
Nor am I saying that I agree with people being executed.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

C'dale Girl

The United States Constitution affords certain freedoms to law abiding American citizens. Convicted criminals are not afforded the same rights. The most obvious example is the constitutional right to liberty . . . . convicted criminals sentenced to serve jail time clearly lose this right, as they lose their freedom.

This is not to say that I support the use of chain gangs as punishment. The Eighth Amendment protects individuals from "cruel and unusual punishment." Hence, the issues with the sheriff and his chain gangs that you are hearing about.

It is not analogous to compare convicted criminals to law abiding American citizens, even under the Constitution. It is flawed to argue that on this basis Americans are hypocrits and hardly the representative democratic nation they tout themselves to be.

C'dale Girl

I'm curious, have you lived in the United States or spent a great deal of time there?

It is an oversimplification, misrepresentation and misstatement to claim that American society and politics are leaning towards christian fundamentalism. Just because the republican party has in recent years done a fine job in their political campaign of taking advantage of the blind religious rights and encouraging them to come out and vote in masses for their guy(s) and the democrats have been unable to find a good enough reason that would likewise motivate their masses doesn't mean Christian fundamentalism represents reality in the ranks of American society.

The harsh reality is that only a minority of registered voters show up at the polls . . . . hardly representative of the general population. Don't confuse politics and complex, manipulative political campaigns with reality and then make the mistake of making over-generalizations as to Americans and American society as a whole. As one example, granted I've always lived in urban and suburban areas in the United States and rural America is where many of the fundamentalists reside, but many more people live in the suburbs and cities than the rural areas and in my adult life I've been hard pressed to find many families that even attend church, much less adhere to the extremist christian views.

If you look at recent American political history you will find that the pendulum has swung in the other direction with the legislature being made up of a democratic majority as of the last election, though slight at the moment. The momentum is changing and that will show even more clearly in the next Presidential election imo, assuming the democrats can put a qualified candidate forward. We can only elect a President every four years. Give us a chance. Many former Bush supporters have seen the light in the last four years especially, but our hands are tied until the next election. The people have spoken their dissatisfaction with the last congressional election and that same voice will hopefully come through again in the 2008 Presidential election.

Listening to what you read or hear in any news medium and taking it as gospel likely doesn't get you the truth any way you look at it, whether it's Fox News or CNN. There is a political undertone in any medium that relays politically oriented information and the real truth lies somewhere in the middle.

wolfix

Amnesty International Amnesty International disagrees...... And some of your more liberal European governments disagree.

In March 2006, Dutch Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk said that it was now clear Now it can be argued that the men committed other crimes, but the fact they were gay is the reason they were hung...... Convenient reason.



This is off the net........ And the Iranian president just denied that homo's are present in Iran. This is coming from a man that said something about wiping another country off the map........ A statement of that caliber coming from a leader id pretty indicitive of the level of progressiveness of his country.

In fulll agreement.

__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."

Carrera

There appear to be serious human rights issues in the U.S. and it's a point of concern. In many ways, there's even a comparison with Iran. For example, Wolfix is pointing out how gays and lesbians in Iran suffer repression whereas we know in the U.S.A. gays and lesbians have freedom and protection.
On the other hand, there is serious repression of black people in certain areas of the U.S., to the point there's just been a huge march in Louisiana, joined by Jesse Jackson. There's the case of the chain gangs which is pretty shocking. You ask yourself why this situation hasn't been dealt with immediately. I understand some of the chain gang members are there for prostitution -probably disadvantaged women who got into trouble.
There was the case of a woman facing 10 years in jail for serving alcohol to some teens at a house party and where we compare with Iran is over the morality and religious belief that fuels such situations. No doubt that sheriff attends church every Sunday too.
Then we see potential presidential candidates being forced to appear on national television to profess their belief in God (does any secular atheist or agnostic really stand a hope??)
Here's the point, though: People need to wake up and smell the coffee. We do not live in a so-called democracy, not even over here in the U.K. The Greeks who invented democracy didn't follow so-called "leaders" such as Blair or Bush who make decisions over our heads. Greeks had an actual role in policy. They participated and could even bring charges against a political leader and hold him to account.
What we see (even in Europe) is an Oligarchy. That is to say, the collective rule of an educated elite who only represent a tiny fraction of the population. We don't have a multiparty system either, for that matter. Mass immigration is forced over our heads. War is undertaken without even a referendum. Protests are stifled. Bush criticizes Burma yet we see images of Vietnam protesters being cracked over the skull by police in the U.S. for opposing policy. Also in the U.K., most protests are banned - the excuse being terrorism e.t.c.
My view is democracy starts at home. Before we can even begin to try and encourage democracy in Iran, we'd better sort out our own ship first. Bush has been accused of state sponsered torture, deceit, major human rights abuses and disdain for democratic values. He's been criticized worldwide as a hypocrite and you can't blame people for reaching such a conclusion.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

It's now almost impossible to succeed in American politics as an agnostic or secular politician. Read this article and see why:


"In the US, where freedom to practise religion - or to have no religion at all - is enshrined in the constitution, the consequences of being an atheist are electorally dire for anybody seeking public office.

Until a few years ago, the Colorado businessman Dave Habecker had served on his local town council for 13 years.

One of his fellow councillors successfully introduced the reciting of the national pledge of allegiance - in response to the Iraq war - as a sign of support for US troops, said Mr Habecker.
Ever since the mid-1950s, the pledge has contained the phrase "Under God" and at the height of the anti-communist era, US bank notes were also changed to include the inscription: "In God We Trust".

Mr Habecker refused to stand and recite the pledge, and after being branded unpatriotic, was forced to enter a fresh election contest to remove him from office. He lost by some 300 votes.

"I don't know that anybody feels elated that I was removed from office for this reason," he told the programme.

"Deep down they know that I was removed for my religious beliefs, which is anti-American. We brag about being the freest country in the world. Why do we coerce our citizens to stand and recite a pledge of allegiance? It's a paradox."

While it may be virtually impossible to survive in office without faith in a supreme being, it remains to be seen how successful the Democratic Party's new confidence in the power of personal testimony will prove to be with a divided and volatile electorate."

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."