Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Crankyfeet

"Democracy" is just a red-herring concept similar to Iraq's WMD's. If America really believed in democracy, the world (or United Nations) would become one, and China would get five times as many votes as the USA.

Democracy is only espoused when it gives you - or rationalizes - what you want.

11ring

Sure, on many indicators Iran is much more progressive, more women go to university than men, there are elections etc, ,i.e. Iran IS a democracy by commonly used standards.

But i disagree that there are different standards for different regions or races or cultures. The people of the Middle East have been fighting for democracy, in the sense of the people having a say in their countries policies through demonstrations, revolutions, and elections,and it has been the US that has consistently crushed these aspirations, as real democratic states would oppose Isreal, use the oil to benefit the citizens, oppose neoliberalism, and oppose US and other states imperial projects in the region. Even scarier, they might develop industry and not be dependent on oil exports to earn foreign currency.

Democracy as a concept is universally progressive, it is just that when it is likened to a specific form of economic rationalism, which the US promotes but doesn't practice, and in any case is about restricting peoples control over their economy and lives, is it any wonder that people are hesitant to sing it's praises. That does not mean that democracy is not "suitable" for the "poor backward uneducated Arabs who will only abuse it" (as in make decisions counter to imperialisms wishes)- it is precisely this argument which is used to gibe "reluctant and pragmatic support" (read CIA and air force backing) to US imposed dictators.

In Europe it did take centuries to win limited parliamentary democracy, but it was not some gradual process in which people learnt the democratic principle and gradually enacted it, it was because the early attempts to fight feudalism were drowned in blood. All the better if it (the democratic revolution (s))happened sooner and not in a compromised way, such as in Britian where the bloody monarchy was compromised with rather than crushed.

In Iran most of the same people who advocate a more progressive social policy with regards to women, minorities etc, are not pro-US and do not support economic rationalism, they are for public investment in universities, againt US agression, oppose Israel, and are for increased acess to health care and public transport etc.

It is absolute rubbish to associate "economic liberalism" in the sence of neo liberal economic policies with "political liberalism" in the sense of democratic rights etc.

In fact, there is a long standing debate regarding the compatibility of democracy and economic liberalism, especially with regards to the US state. The right wing elements in this debate argues that the US state is founded on property rights enshrined by principles of economic liberalism, which democracy undermines. The then go onto argue that democracy should be subordinate and sacrificed in the name of property rights.

Bro Deal

I will disagree in that I would not characterize the switch to democracy in the West as sudden. While the actual switch to democracy was often short and bloody, it was preceded by hundreds of years of cultural and intellectual changes. The American and French Revolutions swept away governments that had become anachronisms at that point in their cultural development.

Democracy works best in fairly homogeneous societies that are well educated and have a large middle class. Many (most) countries in the world do not meet those criteria. The U.S. is currently heading in a direction that makes democracy less workable.

I am very skeptical (to say the least) that the world is filled with peoples yearning to be free and all you need to do is let them vote and you will end up with strong democratic nations. That is a fallacy that led the neocons to invade Iraq. I tend to believe that there is no perfect government or economic system or set of laws that is suitable for every people. Instead you need to find a system that fits a people and their situation.

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"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

sogood

Agree with this view.

Democracy is something that comes naturally when a society evolves, when all the necessary socioeconomic conditions are in place. It's definitely not something that can be forced upon externally. Hence it makes me wonder about all these economic sanctions applied to certain countries, one that kills off the developing middle class, leading to further delays in the democratic change. This bipolar behaviour of some Western countries, where one day it's aid and then sanction the next, is utterly puzzling. There's a thing called leave them alone...

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Morphed Bianchi Camaleonte IV 2006, Ridley Damocles 2006, Garmin, Mac

Bro Deal

Good point.

To take this back to Russia, after the breakup of the USSR there was talk of massive economic aid. The U.S. turned out to be stingy. Clinton let the situation fester, and Bush has been actively picking at the wound. Developing a thriving middle class in Russia might have paid off long term. Instead we have poured tons of money building the economy of China, which looks more and more like a fascist state.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

11ring

The point is, it doesn't have to be forced, the problem is not that the US forces democracy, but undermines it and subverts it. Saddam Hussein was partly the result of the crushed democratic revolution in 1958. For a bit of breif history and further development of the idea see Noam Chomskeys Deterring Democracy. Time and time again the US has moved to thwart indigenous movements towards democracy, because it is counter to US interests. The people in Iraq, Nicaragua, Chile ect are not backward peasants that can't figure out how to fill out a ballot, compared to 17th century England or 18th century France, they are bloody sophisticated, with better education, higher levels of literacy ect. The only democratic problem they have is that they voted or revolted for the wrong person (from the US perspective, not their own)


Iraq is not (at least was not before the invasion) a backward country, it had very develped civil institutions, universities, scientists, engineers. We are talking about a country that was accused of having a nuclear weapons program!

More to the point, look at Bolivia, a very diverse country with 60% of the polulation coming from several dozen indigenous groups, a massive peasant class and crushing poverty. But it has a functioning democracy with much higher levels of participation than the US, despite voters having to sometimes trek for hours to get to a polling station. The people are engaged in a way that would make you wonder what sort of fraudulent democracy you have been sold, as it looks anaemic indeed by comparison. If paternalism is not justified in Bolivia, why then in the middle east, or elsewhere.

So, what is the problem with the Iraqi democracy? well, I don't think it is a problem with Iraqi people as much as the sham model that has been imposed.

To name just two reasons why the government is weak, and doesn't reflect the wishes of the Iraqi people.

The CPA wrote the constitution, that is why blackwater etc are immune from proscetution. Economic policy is limited by the constitution enshrining the rights of foreign corporations.

The US has lots and lots of troops in Iraq, it can exert "extra parliamentary" or "gunship deplomacy" to restrict the scope of governance. Candidates it doesn't like get killed or blacklisted.

The US has formented sectarianism, including through the use of staged attacks in an attempt to diminish an unfortunately (for the US) strong nationalist desire amongst many Iraqi's.

Now is the problem too much or not enough democracy ???

A real democracy would, as a start

1. Kick out the US, removing the primary reason for violence in Iraq
2. Develop an economic policy consisting of more than guaranteed rights to US contractors and multinationals, and use the oil revenue to rebuild the economy and alleviate poverty.

Which would be a positive step, and one which all sensible people should advocate for, but the US will only allow on pain of defeat.

Given that predicament, we can only wish for a US defeat sooner rather than later.

Carrera

There was a documentary on T.V. about that sheriff in Arizona. There was an uproar about that guy but the worry is nothing has been done about him. This guy is running chain gangs and to illustrate what a dinosaur he is, he was quoted as stating people who suffered child abuse use the situation as a crutch to commit crimes. So, an individual who was raised by an alcoholic mother and abusive father is simply going to turn out emotionally stable and gain employment, correct? Well, I very much doubt it.
I can't quite work out why such people are put into positions of responsibility in America without being removed or even prosecuted. I mean, come on, chain gangs in this century is beyond belief. Only China has a system that comes close.
Of course, I understand there are very many Americans who are outraged, but there should be far greater safeguards to accomplish the very thing Condi Rice was urging Putin to do - protect ordinary citizens from an overbearing State. I do think it would have been awesome if Putin had confronted Condi Rice with a full report of the chain gangs in the U.S. and the fact gun-tooting, right-wing sheriffs are allowed to bypass the most basic human rights norms and treat often disadvantaged people as garbage.
I can't figure out why if Americans have a constitution they're not in actual fact protected from regional dictators e.t.c.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

As I said, why not show Miss Rice a movie/documentary of this stuff next time she visits Moscow to lecture on human rights. See pics below:

"We took away coffee, that saved $150,000 a year. Why do you need coffee in jail?" says Arpaio, patrolling the dusty, barren grounds. "Switched to bologna sandwiches, that saved half a million dollars a year."

Arpaio makes inmates pay for their meals, which some say are worse than those for the guard dogs. Canines eat $1.10 worth of food a day, the inmate 90 cents, the sheriff says. "I'm very proud of that too."

Critics rail against harsh conditions in the prison, where temperatures can top 100 degrees.

"We still have rights, but they act like we're scum," one inmate complains.

Adds Eleanor Eisenberg of the ACLU: "Sheriff Arpaio has conditions in his jail that are inhumane, and he's proud of it."

Arpaio boasts of his chain gangs for men and women, which "contribute thousands of dollars of free labor to taxpayers each month," according to his Web site."

Attached Thumbnails

   

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

limerickman

Very good post and one which clarifies the problem well, in my opinion.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

sogood

I wouldn't call it that way. They have their own unique set of cultural and socioeconomic condition that's foreign to most westerners. Based on my contacts there, the degree of freedom is similar to what was said of Russia at present. And believe it or not, people are relatively happy and are hopeful of the future. Based on a recent TV documentary shown here, it would appear that the government understands the necessary conditions of democracy. Essentially, there's work being done to educate and practice democratic principles at primary school level. I think that is a good sign.

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Morphed Bianchi Camaleonte IV 2006, Ridley Damocles 2006, Garmin, Mac

sogood

The funny thing is, a red flag comes up for me whenever the US lectures democracy to another country but not so for many other western countries. I think some European countries in particular really believe what they preach.

The difference with Bolivia is that it lacked deeply divisive religion in its mix.

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Morphed Bianchi Camaleonte IV 2006, Ridley Damocles 2006, Garmin, Mac

limerickman

China is an interesting case in point.

Certain western media, and certain western goverments, equate capitalism with "democracy".........and they make the misguided leap to try to link China's recent emergence as a trading power with the advent of "democracy".
(I use the word "democracy" advisedly).

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of economic history, would be aware that China has been trading for centuries.
China traded when it was a collection of provinces under feudal rule centuries ago, it traded under Mao decades ago, and it trades now under the present leadership.

The mistake made by commentators in the west......is the attempt to suggest that "democracy" and "capitalism" are one in the same ........and that
"communism" and "market-based economies" are also one in the same.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Wurm

What some of you may not yet know:

"On July 24, 2001, less than two months before September 11, 2001, China and Russia signed the Treaty of Good-Neighbourliness and Friendly Cooperation. The latter is a softly worded mutual defence pact against the U.S., NATO, and the U.S. sponsored Asian military network which was surrounding China. [1]

The military pact of the Shanghai Treaty Organization (SCO) also follows the same softly worded format. It is also worth noting that Article 12 of the 2001 Sino-Russian bilateral treaty stipulates that China and Russia will work together to maintain the global strategic balance, “observation of the basic agreements relevant to the safeguard and maintenance of strategic stability,” and “promote the process of nuclear disarmament.” [2] This seems to be an insinuation about a nuclear threat posed from the United States."


Link

No doubt the Neo Cons are well aware of this, yet will continue the smokescreen of "A nuculer Iran? Oh Mai!" for the consumption of the masses in the US.

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"Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense."

- John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon)

The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.

sogood

Yep, Neocons just love to make enemies so their existence can be justified. A sign of narrow mindedness.

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Morphed Bianchi Camaleonte IV 2006, Ridley Damocles 2006, Garmin, Mac