Page 10 - Russia tests world's biggest bomb

30-11.-2007, 03:09 AM

#136

limerickman

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by sogood

France is another one of those ex-colonial power.

If one wants to be objective about it, then one has to question why can Israel have nuclear weapon while Iran can't? Why can US, Russia, China, Pakistan, India have nuclear but Iran can't? Everyone country use national security as the reason for owning nuclear. So why can't Iran have it? At the end of the day, the amount of out of border military adventures is far more frequent when it comes to the US than any other country at this point in time. And historically the US is the only country that have used nuclear weapons against another country.

I can understand the need for opposition from an anti-proliferation point of view, which obviously is important. But to excuse Iran to be a terrorist state is just a joke. The number of CIA funded covert ops on foreign soils gives the US no saint status.

There is already a nuclear arms race in the Middle East - and with one country armed to it's teeth with nuclear weapons (Israel), other countries in that immediate region would be well within their rights to hold nuclear weapons too.

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morelike hypocrisy.

30-11.-2007, 04:35 AM

#137

Crankyfeet

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrera

The reason Bush invaded Iraq was simply because, by their own admission, Iraq was a pushover for invasion. They also wanted S Hussein out since if sanctions had been lifted under S.H. he'd have sold oil to the Russian and French out of spite. America would have been pushed out of the oil business in that region and Bush was an oil man when all's said and done.

Are you freakin' serious??? Russia needs to buy oil from other countries like Switzerland needs to buy watches and chocolates.

Come on, own up Carrera. You're 23 and you're still in university in your 6th year of that 3 year B. Arts degree.

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30-11.-2007, 05:32 AM

#138

Crankyfeet

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

I think one of the false hopes that America is clinging onto is that they can contain nuclear proliferation and hence maintain their previous 60 year hegemony over most of the world. Not that I am a proponent of nuclear proliferation. Just that I think a realist would probably foresee that we are eventually going to end up in a world where everyone has nuclear weapons, much the same as most everyone now has tanks, warships and fighter planes.

It is obvious to any country that to have a nuclear weapon dramatically raises the international respect quotient.

So if we accept that this is the highly probable future, what's the best way to get there? The US is either banking naively on no countries in the future developing a nuclear weapons capability/arsenal. Or they are just trying to prolong the period of time that they are lords of the "We can annihilate you at anytime" system of world diplomacy.

In any case, I note a distinct theme of US policy that is aggressive, provocative and encouraging conflict, which I think stems from a few factors. One being that America truly believes that everyone is scared of them, which has some merit, but not to the extent that they perceive. Another being that there is a huge silent defence industry in the US that even Eisenhower warned about, that commercially needs conflict to do business. Another is that the American voters like/want their leaders to have fist-waving bravado; and conversely - conciliatory leaders are perceived as being weak. And another is that they do not have that much international diplomatic experience, like European colonial powers have, and hence tend to naively believe that the rest of the world thinks the same as them. And also, IMO, they undervalue the negative effects to their own security in the world of acting arrogantly and selfishly, and of the negative effects of bad PR when alot of the world resents them.

But notwithstanding the frustrations globally of US imperiousness, the country has the mechanism to right itself, and the people are on the whole virtuous and charitable. It is just some eccentrics behind closed doors in the government who create the bad joss offshore, and then are able to sugar-coat it somehow in the US media (if its seen at all), who are the problem IMO. The US doesn't get to witness itself in other countries like other countries do. But the ship is turning folks.

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30-11.-2007, 08:17 AM

#139

Bro Deal

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrera

"American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.
The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.
One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.
The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.
And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.
According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.
It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.
Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard". "

I don't see what they are so surprised about. U.S. aircraft carrier groups exist to exert power over countries that cannot fight back. In a real war those carriers are goners.

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30-11.-2007, 08:21 AM

#140

Bro Deal

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Which just makes the U.S. insistence that Iran stop its nuclear work a joke. Israel has nucler weapons, has invaded its neighbors, and still occupies parts of Syria and as well as the Palestinian's land. If the U.S. truly cared about about peace and stability in the Middle East then they would get the Israelis under control.

30-11.-2007, 09:00 AM

#141

limerickman

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

In any case, I note a distinct theme of US policy that is aggressive, provocative and encouraging conflict, which I think stems from a few factors. One being that America truly believes that everyone is scared of them, which has some merit, but not to the extent that they perceive. Another being that there is a huge silent defence industry in the US that even Eisenhower warned about, that commercially needs conflict to do business. .

Very good point.

Eisenhower did warn the people of the USA that the "defence" industry was a threat to not only America's peace but that it was also a threat to US goverment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

Another is that the American voters like/want their leaders to have fist-waving bravado; and conversely - conciliatory leaders are perceived as being weak.

It is interesting to note that even the US education system panders to the perception of an all-conquering US military, for example.
I was in the USA some years ago and looking at one of my nephews school history books.
The Vietnam war, for example, in that history book wasn't described as a military defeat.
That kind of revisionism, coupled with comments like "we won world war 2"
(when in fact the Allies - Russia/Britain/USA and others - defeated the Axis
powers), play to that perception.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

And another is that they do not have that much international diplomatic experience, like European colonial powers have, and hence tend to naively believe that the rest of the world thinks the same as them. .

The fact that the USA is a new country, in relative terms to the European colonial powers means that it hasn't got the insight that those colonial powers may have of regions where there is conflict.

Oddly though, those regions where conflict is most prevalent today derives in a large part from the colonial meddling of previous years.
And yet instead of learning from those former colonial powers mistakes (redrawing maps, establishing puppet regimes), the USA today appears to be repeating the failed formulas of those former colonial powers by trying to establish puppet regimes/redrawing maps !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

But notwithstanding the frustrations globally of US imperiousness, the country has the mechanism to right itself, and the people are on the whole virtuous and charitable. It is just some eccentrics behind closed doors in the government who create the bad joss offshore, and then are able to sugar-coat it somehow in the US media (if its seen at all), who are the problem IMO. The US doesn't get to witness itself in other countries like other countries do. But the ship is turning folks.

Which is the most baffling part.
Most Americans I've met are reasonable, decent people.
However their goverments policy is at odds with the views that they have expressed about how they would wish to see their country engage internationally.

30-11.-2007, 09:49 AM

#142

Crankyfeet

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

That kind of revisionism, coupled with comments like "we won world war 2"
(when in fact the Allies - Russia/Britain/USA and others - defeated the Axis
powers), play to that perception.

Lim - Seems we see things similarly, at least in foreign policy terms, however I don't think the "We won WW2" claim is that harmful, even though it probably irritates Brits no end. I think the same mantra has been sung at a few England/Germany football games with equal invalidity.

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30-11.-2007, 09:53 AM

#143

Biker Joe

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

Israel has NEVER invaded it's neighboring states without first being attacked or invaded.

I have to say, you guys are a complete joke. 9202 is correct, you self perpetuate a self serving view of the world and history. This is sad, very sad, and VERY disconcerting as well.

This thread discussion is a complete joke.

30-11.-2007, 09:55 AM

#144

Crankyfeet

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

Israel is one of the biggest examples of US hypocrisy evident to the rest of the world. Pakistan is working its way up there too, if the supported anti-democratic dictatorial clamp-down continues there. But in Pakistan's case, the catch 22 quagmire for the US probably stems from the original lie that American aggression is motivated and justified on the grounds of spreading "democracy" and "freedom".

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30-11.-2007, 09:55 AM

#145

nns1400

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Really? Well, when I was studying French in high school, something we had to read were French textbooks. In case you didn't know, Charles De Gaulle won WW 2.

BTW Europe, you're welcome...

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

30-11.-2007, 10:00 AM

#146

limerickman

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by nns1400

Really? Well, when I was studying French in high school, something we had to read were French textbooks. In case you didn't know, Charles De Gaulle won WW 2.

BTW Europe, you're welcome...

Well those French textbooks are as inaccurate as the history books used in New England circa 1994.

The fact of the matter is that the Allies won world war 2.

30-11.-2007, 10:01 AM

#147

nns1400

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Well those French textbooks are as inaccurate as the history books used in New England circa 1994.

The fact of the matter is that the Allies won world war 2.

Duh...

Textbooks are written by committees...they all suck, any subject...

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

30-11.-2007, 10:03 AM	#148
Crankyfeet Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: You are here => X Posts: 10,494	Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb We have heard the justification that the bombs were dropped on Japan to end the war. Has anyone asked why the second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki only three days after 140,000 civilians were killed in Hiroshima? The second drop on Nagasaki killed an estimated 80,000 civilians. Seems like some ass-holes were just having some "fun" seeing how many people they could kill with the "Fat Man" bomb in Nagasaki. If there truly was respect for human life...all attempts would have been made for a surrender after the first bomb, even if that can somehow be justified. __________________ Last edited by Crankyfeet : 30-11.-2007 at 10:26 AM.

30-11.-2007, 10:03 AM

#149

limerickman

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

Agreed.
And agreed.

Just that the point dovetails nicely with your earlier point about people wanting their leaders to engage in bravado.

It does beggar belief though that the USA, today, seems to be intent on repeating the exact same mistakes that were made by those former colonial powers.

30-11.-2007, 10:05 AM

#150

sogood

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Re: Russia tests world's biggest bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

I don't see what they are so surprised about. U.S. aircraft carrier groups exist to exert power over countries that cannot fight back. In a real war those carriers are goners.

I often wondered just how useful are these show of strength? What's the point of floating a few carrier battle groups into the Red Sea? As if the Iranians don't know that the US have them. So what if they are out there? Nothing changes until there's an actual invasion, at which point Iranians will die, but so will American. And we all know that without ground action, air power alone only has limited power. As seen in the Iran-Iraq war, they are willing to die in the millions, but is the US willing to sacrifice the same? Hence the paper tiger analogy.

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