Page 3 - Training/Racing Advice Needed

11-08.-2007, 08:06 AM	#31
iliveonnitro Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 124	Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed Definitely race the PT. Until you turn pro where the difference of 150g will really make a difference (will it really, though?), you have no reason not to race with it other than not wanting to trash the wheel. daveryan answered part 2 well. __________________ My club: University of Illinois-Chicago Cycling

12-08.-2007, 10:27 AM

#32

jsirabella

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: NYC, USA

Posts: 451

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

My coach has friends at Ritchey and he got me a great price on the ritchey carbon wcs and they are beautiful and tough. One of the main reasons he got them for me is that he knew I was doing terrible at descents especially thosse with curves and thought these wheels would help. He was kind of right becuase I knew it was all mental...I just needed to get more comfortable with the bike and it has started to finally happen....I really starting to feel that "one with bike zen thing", I always thought it was a joke.

The wheel which has the pt is what he called a "three fold" wheel (??) where it is suppose to be more comfortable for longer rides but alot cheaper and is a mavic rim with armadilo tires. Maybe he had nothing else at his fingertips that day but I wonder if I could put it on the ricthey rims??? will look into it.

On a more training issue, I was out with the family in Long Island today and they let me get away for a few hours and ride. LI is definitely flat...no doubt...even where buddy said was hilly, it was flat on Jericho turnpike. I got all my data recorded and will load into the computer once I could find that damn wire that allowed it to hook into computer. I have a couple questions though...

1) It seems to me that after a few hours I start to get these cravings on the bike. The one that bothers me the most is I really want to drink soda, when I stop I must buy a bottle for the sweet. I do not get it! I never drink soda otherwise. I mean I drink the water as I am riding, I even have a cytomax bottle in addition to the water but it does not matter. Also I do the power bar and power gels before and during the ride...than when I try to eat...I just can not seem to get it down my stomach. I have this strange feeling of being full and can not fit anything. I really feel if I could just get my diet right while eating, I could ride strong so much longer!! Any help??

2) I have been doing the gym one days a week, riding/gym one day and three days riding and off two days I was doing great than the strangest thing happen. Yesterday was an off day when I do my stretching and afterwards all day, I had these strange soreness/light cramps in either one of my quad muscles or IT band and knee/ankle. It made no sense as when I ride and gym I feel great and even today the day after I feel great but on my recovery days I feel the soreness...any ideas?

Thanks again for all your help guys and hoping to do an official threshold test Monday morning just to try and follow the book to the letter for now.

-js

Quote:

Originally Posted by iliveonnitro

Definitely race the PT. Until you turn pro where the difference of 150g will really make a difference (will it really, though?), you have no reason not to race with it other than not wanting to trash the wheel.

daveryan answered part 2 well.

12-08.-2007, 02:22 PM	#33
iliveonnitro Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 124	Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed 1) How much time do you give between the time that you eat and the time you hop on your bike for a workout? What kind of food do you eat before? 2) I would quit the gym until winter and only do it for a month or so at most. Replace the gym with more riding...5x/wk at least. __________________ My club: University of Illinois-Chicago Cycling

12-08.-2007, 11:03 PM

#34

pistole

Registered User

Join Date: May 2007

Posts: 240

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella

He advised to start with the Prospect Park race which is shorter and less hilly but most people describe as a crit than a race. Well anyway I got my doors blown off twice at this race, not even being able to keep up for half a lap. I just do not get it, maybe I am just not cut out for racing but can maintain avg speeds around the track of 20mph in Central Park. It just seems as soon as I get blown from the pack I just can not keep up and just completely die which I feel is more mental. I mean I look at the results at the end of the race and they are doing laps in about 16 minutes but yet I can do it in about 18 without a pack I just get completely blown out

- Hi JS.

- I have my own tale of woe.

- Just did my FIRST road-race on Saturday. A 110kms (about 70miles) over flat roads. A couple of local pro-teams were there too.

- I train a fair bit , and like you , thought that I could 'hold on' (ie , I just wanted to stick with the group , no heroics). On my regular group rides , I suffer on flats but can drop alot of stronger riders on hills (hence my thinking that I could 'hold on').

- but I never figured on the SPEED , and the way they peloton was driven by the guys in front. Ie , they'd catch a breath and maintain 40kmh (25mph) , and then there would be burst of speed bringing the peloton up to 55kmh (34mph). They constantly yo-yo-ed the group and I just couldn't bridge the last one. I held on for about 40kms (25miles) and then got spat-out the back. Then it was me and one other poor-soul , we worked together after that.

- my small chainring never saw any action. It was blinkin' fast.

- I think need to train more , need to be able to take the changes in speed.

gawd.

.

13-08.-2007, 12:34 AM

#35

iliveonnitro

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 124

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

Quote:

Originally Posted by pistole

I'm probably hawking this thread too much, but I've been bored lately.

You discovered why intervals are so important in your workouts! This was your first road race and you were put in with pros??

To give you an idea, I just did a cat3 criterium for the Tour of Elk Grove. Even though the course wasn't meant to hold 130 riders, and we slowed to 5-10mph in turns, we still averaged 27.5mph. Every straight saw speeds average ~33mph; every turn saw a 600+ watt sprint to catch up to the group. Sitting near the front 25 riders still put my average power, with zeros (times when I didn't pedal), at 270watts.

__________________
My club: University of Illinois-Chicago Cycling

13-08.-2007, 05:53 AM

#36

jsirabella

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: NYC, USA

Posts: 451

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

Hi Pistole,

It sounds like to me that you are definitely ahead of the curve when compared to me. It seems you lasted very long with the other riders and was able to deal with a good number of the bursts of speed. Wish I was so lucky. In addition you are doing a 70 mile race and I have been doing more like a 17 mile race/crit. To be honest I am looking foward to doing one of the Central Park races as they are longer and hiller. I feel they may not go all out as long as they have to save for the hills and the race is an additional 17 miles making 35 miles.

As far as training, I am used to a gym and spreadsheets with weights as I came from the bodybuilding mindset. The one thing I found frustrating about cycling was the only way I felt I was getting better was by comparing myself to someone else's riding (staying with the pack). This was very, very frustrating as I am best when I am competiting with myself or something like a machine. It seemed very unscientific and honestly when lifting weights no one comes next to you and tries to lift more than you too often. With cycling, everyone and anyone wants to ride faster than you, it does not matter if they are 20 or 60, it seems to be something from childhood or just something everyone feels they can do.

My coach gave me spreadsheets with what to do for about 8 months now but finally I owe alot to Dave(??) here as he recommended the book in this thread and finally I can start with my spreadsheets and make some analysis on where and how to improve. I have passed it on to my coach and he is happy and seems to notice now I am finally having "fun" with it.

If you are like me, I would invest in the book and power meter but if you are a young stud and just want to have fun and go balls out I understand. At 42, I need all the help I could get expecting to start racing now.

-js

Worst that can happen with all the additional training is my wife seems to have found a new found interest in what the riding is doing to me physically atleast...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pistole

13-08.-2007, 06:00 AM

#37

jsirabella

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: NYC, USA

Posts: 451

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

1) Coming from my bodybuilding, I will be honest as I am a supplement pig!

Before ride -> Whey Protein Shake with Glutamine and BCAA, 4 grams Arginine, 1.5 grams of Carnitine, 2 grams Tyrosine, 2 grams of Taurine, Power Bar and a cafffine drink like spike. On heavy days I may even do Gakic.

During the ride -> Water bottles with water and glutamine, Power Gels and gatorade bottle.

After ride -> Whey Protein Shale with glutamine and something like grapefruit drink and fruit, cottage cheese or maybe yogurt...

The rest of the day is full of alot of protein in many different forms and mixing in some fats/carbs for processing the protein.

2) You are probably right but it has been hard to keep reducing it as much as I have over the last 8 months!

-js

Quote:

Originally Posted by iliveonnitro

1) How much time do you give between the time that you eat and the time you hop on your bike for a workout? What kind of food do you eat before?

2) I would quit the gym until winter and only do it for a month or so at most. Replace the gym with more riding...5x/wk at least.

13-08.-2007, 07:17 AM

#38

daveryanwyoming

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,386

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella

...After ride -> Whey Protein Shale with glutamine and something like grapefruit drink and fruit, cottage cheese or maybe yogurt......

Quote:

...many athletes still believe protein is the critical substrate for achieving athletic success. Although all substrates are important, delivering the right amounts of carbohydrate at the right time optimizes the limited carbohydrate stores, ensures better carbohydrate delivery to the brain, and improves endurance performance. By comparison, the common focus on excess protein consumption does little to enhance performance or a sense of well-being.

-Dave
P.S. you've hit on one of the best things about power meters in your post. They give you an objective yardstick for measuring performance gains independant of how other riders are doing. Your speed could go up or down on any given ride depending on terrain and weather but if your power steadily increases you really know the process is working. That's a big reason to not only ride with a PM, but to load and store the files for review and later comparison. It's really motivating and once you get enough PM ride history to get good data from the Performance Manager in CyclingPeaks WKO+(the best PM analysis software and well worth the price for this feature alone) you can really understand your training and peaking cycles.

13-08.-2007, 10:52 AM

#39

pistole

Registered User

Join Date: May 2007

Posts: 240

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

Quote:

Originally Posted by iliveonnitro

You discovered why intervals are so important in your workouts! This was your first road race and you were put in with pros?

- hi Nitro

- okay , will try to work on the sprint-intervals. Painful , those.

- locally , we don't have any form of classifications (eg , Cat XX , whatever), so roadraces are "open" , everyone from local pro-teams , to National/State riders are accounted for.

- on hindsight , me thinks that it was the on-off-on-off accelerations of the peloton which really did me in. I was pretty happy cruising mid-pack, trying to keep out of the wind and looking for big-guys to hide behind (sorry .. but race-virgin here .... )

.
.

Hi JS,

- must keep on training !

cheers and good thread.

.

14-08.-2007, 06:30 AM

#40

jsirabella

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: NYC, USA

Posts: 451

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

I can not believe it...got myself all psyched and did my first threshold test in cp. Had it all thought out on how to use a combo of the small circle and big circle to make the course represent the test as I want the warm up to truely be a warm up and not the ride.

Anyway wake up at my usual 5:05 and do my usual routine as I look out the window it is drizzling...

....but I still go through my morning prep paces and as I look again outside it just stopped but the streets were wet. I actually like it better this way because there is one great thing that happens with that...sooo many less people in the park so I feel like I own it.,

Anyway it was a much harder test than I thought but I get to my office with my cyclo-computer, locate the docking link that I never used, buy a usb serial adapter as who uses serial anymore and I bought the powertap used and found out is is a powertap pro, start poweragent 7.1 and .... nothing!

It seems that poweragent 7.1 only works with the usb docking link as the kind customer support person told me and she says I can no longer download earlier version of the software...god was i upset....so I purchased another one and she will send it overnight. My coach who got me the powertap said I would not need the software as you can download it...ugggh!!!

If any of you good folks know where I can download an earlier version of this software so I can use it today...I would be most grateful....thank you all.

-js

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

What about carbs to replenish the glycogen you've spent during your workout? The grapefruit drink and fruit are a start but it seems your focus is on the amino acids and protein. Aerobic exercise is fueled primarily by glycogen, especially at SST, Threshold and race pace intensities. Protein is good and necessary, but secondary to carbs when it comes to fueling cycling for both the ride and the recovery. Check out this link, especially the importance of replenishing glycogen stores right after the ride and how carbs dominate and protein is secondary: http://www.carbboom.com/education/recovery.php

Sure these guys are selling a product, but do a search on "critical half hour glycogen" or something like that and you'll find plenty of studies referencing the need to keep your glycogen stores topped up for aerobic training and racing. A lot of folks, especially those coming from weight lifting put too much emphasis on protein and neglect the importance of carbs/glycogen for endurance sports. This quote from "Advanced Sports Nutrition" by Dan Bernadot says it really nicely:-Dave
P.S. you've hit on one of the best things about power meters in your post. They give you an objective yardstick for measuring performance gains independant of how other riders are doing. Your speed could go up or down on any given ride depending on terrain and weather but if your power steadily increases you really know the process is working. That's a big reason to not only ride with a PM, but to load and store the files for review and later comparison. It's really motivating and once you get enough PM ride history to get good data from the Performance Manager in CyclingPeaks WKO+(the best PM analysis software and well worth the price for this feature alone) you can really understand your training and peaking cycles.

14-08.-2007, 07:42 AM

#41

daveryanwyoming

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,386

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella

...If any of you good folks know where I can download an earlier version of this software so I can use it today...I would be most grateful....thank you all....

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but you can download CyclingPeaks WKO+ right now. It'll cost you a bit more than getting the Poweragent SW, but it really is the best power analysis SW out there and the price is reasonable.

Check it out here: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/wko/?sn=wko

-Dave

P.S. I see they offer a free trial period so you can at least view today's data, but be warned if you try it, you'll buy it

15-08.-2007, 12:43 AM

#42

jsirabella

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Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: NYC, USA

Posts: 451

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

OK I downloaded it and first of all any software that lets you choose the comport and the type of device you are using, take it from an old programmer, knows its stuff and has been around the block with the qa department....so I knew you were going to be right.

What blew my mind though were pages 53 and 54 of the book. To me after the FTP I wanted to see if the book could cut the mustard in terms of prediciting my power levels based upon their research....damn they were almost right on the money!

I will be honest as my ego is not that easily bruised but after doing the test, I calculated my ftp under the test and environment conditions was 230 (adding in the .05 variance as the book suggested). I than made a spreadsheet to calculate all my different power based training levels as in table 3.1.

Now for my test I compared the numbers the table represented to the different parts of the test where I was doing the VO2 Max and the endurance (65% of max hr) and they were almost dead on...difference of a few points here or there.

This is very exciting and I can not wait to give this to my coach. I will be doing the power profile test next week but will continue with coach schedule but I am than hoping to calculate my weak points and strong points and than make a better training schedule.

Well other than I am just plain weak and need to work on everything...

-js

On a strange note, the software said my max hr went up to 229 during the test...is that really possible, probably just a glitch correct??? My gm trainer said not gonna happen likely unless I am talking to the dead now...

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

15-08.-2007, 02:34 AM

#43

Roadie_scum

Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2003

Posts: 1,274

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella

I than made a spreadsheet to calculate all my different power based training levels as in table 3.1.

You can just enter your FTP on the athlete page in the box provided then open the menu on that box and click 'calculate zones' to get Andy Coggan's zones. It really is good software.

15-08.-2007, 03:27 AM

#44

daveryanwyoming

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,386

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsirabella

...What blew my mind though were pages 53 and 54 of the book...

Quote:

...I calculated my ftp under the test and environment conditions was 230 (adding in the .05 variance as the book suggested). I than made a spreadsheet to calculate all my different power based training levels as in table 3.1.

That's higher than where I started last fall and I've come up a long way from there(and dropped weight so the W/Kg really went up). As Roadie_scum pointed out, you don't need your own spreadsheet. Just enter your best FTP estimate on the athlete home page, calculate Coggan levels from the pull down menu and the program does the work for you. Make sure that you enter starting dates when the time comes to bump up your FTP estimate or it messes with the Performance Manager. IOW when that 230W becomes 240 or 250 make sure you follow the pull down menus to have that new FTP applied only from the new date forward. Took me a while to figure out that feature and I had to go back and rework my Performance Manager charts since it was knocking down all my TSS, CTL and ATL numbers everytime my FTP increased.

Quote:

...Well other than I am just plain weak and need to work on everything...

Sure seems that way at the start, but don't despair you should see steady improvement for quite some time. FWIW I'd strongly recommend focusing on SST and L4 riding to bring up a really solid sub-threshold aerobic base. Especially if you feel like you need work across the board. It may not have you winning those crits right away, but it'll set you up better for long term success and give you a really solid base for future high end work. A lot of folks jump to the short anaerobic work too soon in hopes of getting instant speed and hanging tougher in training races. It might work short term, but you're better off in the long run getting your FTP up high with SST and L4 work and then adding the high end stuff on top of that solid base.

Quote:

the software said my max hr went up to 229 during the test...is that really possible, probably just a glitch correct??? ...

Yeah, you get data anomolies like that from time to time, especially with the HR strap. All it takes is a strong magnetic field near a power line or wind getting under the strap and making an intermittent connection and you can get some really ridiculous numbers. Don't sweat it, it happens all the time. I hardly ever wear the HR strap anymore since a year of power and HR data plotted together really made me realize how little value I get out of the HR data. Others feel differently and you or your coach may find some really cool uses for both HR and power data but I'm really keying on the power stuff these days.

Good luck,
Dave

16-08.-2007, 03:39 AM

#45

jsirabella

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: NYC, USA

Posts: 451

Re: Training/Racing Advice Needed

Hi Dave,

I want to start trying and combine my coaches schedule and change it up a little to involve the SST/Level 4 concept. I read the section again and feel it could be helpful.

Tomorrow I am suppose to do 2 Hour Tempo Ride with 10 X 3 min VO2 intervals, tempo 80-85% with 95-95rpm, Intg 88-92% with 75-80 rpm, hard gear, rest 4 min.

Now based upon my ftp thaat means 175-207watts during ride and than during intervals 244-276 watts and go down to endurance pace during the 4 min rests.

Now to work in an SST/Level 4 based upon the example in the book, they use Joe athlete who is a Cat III, 300 watts ftp and I am 230 watts ftp is that workout good for me as an SST/Level 4 or should I change it up a bit with longer intervals but much less like 2-3 12 minute ints with 5-8 minute rests??

I will than ask you later about my next workout which involves going up harlem 12 times which he wants me to do as a sprint. It is a short hill but steep with a curve. What kind of workout would that fall into in the levels? How could it be modified? The entire loop takes 5 minutes for me to do and I usually average about 170-190 watts for the entire loop of harlem hill.

Thanks for your help dave...

-js

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

I don't have my copy of the book in front of me, but I'd guess you're talking about the power profile tables. Yeah, that's worth the cover price right there. Folks argue about the accuracy and the engine is only part of racing(ya still gotta drive well and be smart) but it's at least a yardstick for seeing where you stand. It's real purpose as the book describes is to gauge your relative strengths and weaknesses and to help you develop a training plan.

That's higher than where I started last fall and I've come up a long way from there(and dropped weight so the W/Kg really went up). As Roadie_scum pointed out, you don't need your own spreadsheet. Just enter your best FTP estimate on the athlete home page, calculate Coggan levels from the pull down menu and the program does the work for you. Make sure that you enter starting dates when the time comes to bump up your FTP estimate or it messes with the Performance Manager. IOW when that 230W becomes 240 or 250 make sure you follow the pull down menus to have that new FTP applied only from the new date forward. Took me a while to figure out that feature and I had to go back and rework my Performance Manager charts since it was knocking down all my TSS, CTL and ATL numbers everytime my FTP increased.

Sure seems that way at the start, but don't despair you should see steady improvement for quite some time. FWIW I'd strongly recommend focusing on SST and L4 riding to bring up a really solid sub-threshold aerobic base. Especially if you feel like you need work across the board. It may not have you winning those crits right away, but it'll set you up better for long term success and give you a really solid base for future high end work. A lot of folks jump to the short anaerobic work too soon in hopes of getting instant speed and hanging tougher in training races. It might work short term, but you're better off in the long run getting your FTP up high with SST and L4 work and then adding the high end stuff on top of that solid base.
Yeah, you get data anomolies like that from time to time, especially with the HR strap. All it takes is a strong magnetic field near a power line or wind getting under the strap and making an intermittent connection and you can get some really ridiculous numbers. Don't sweat it, it happens all the time. I hardly ever wear the HR strap anymore since a year of power and HR data plotted together really made me realize how little value I get out of the HR data. Others feel differently and you or your coach may find some really cool uses for both HR and power data but I'm really keying on the power stuff these days.

Good luck,
Dave

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