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21-08.-2005, 09:06 AM
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#181 |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 383
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Re: The One Hour Record
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It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. |
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10-09.-2005, 10:05 AM
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#182 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
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Re: The One Hour Record
Quote:
Sosenka put a different twist in the game in that his back wheel is extra heavy. UCI has lower limits on weight, but I don't think it says where those weights can be distributed. It also doesn't say you have to be approaching the lower limit. Sosenka ignored the lower limit. If it were an uphill TT, that would have clearly been a mistake, but this game is flat. Perhaps it is advantageous to have a slightly heavier rear wheel, perhaps not. He didn't use exactly as light weight bicycle as Merckx did, but he did break the record convincingly. Also the track was longer too for Sosenka. It's pretty hard to get these various riders to duplicate the conditions exactly throughout history, even with rules. Clearly, Sosenka followed the UCI rules and broke the record. The prevailing wisdom is that the lighter the bike, the greater advantage. I'm not so sure that is true in the One Hour. Still, bottom line: Sosenka's the man now. I'm eager to see him make another go at it. He wants to break 50 km. |
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10-09.-2005, 10:28 AM
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#183 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
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Re: The One Hour Record
Sosenka's record notables:
rear wheel weight=3.2 kg=7.04 lbs gears=54 x 13 total bike weight=9.8 kg=21.56 lbs cranks=190 mm rider's height=6'7"=200.7 cm Note also that the bike is "standard" in form but not in substance; since his legs are so long, the seat is extra high for the frame size he chose. Therefore, he must lean way down to reach the drops. It's not a superman position, but clearly it's not typical for road riders to have such a high seat. Actually, when I look at the bike, I begin to realize why he didn't want to flirt with the lower UCI weight limit. His frame size is smaller than you would expect for a big man like him. Therefore, he'd need more weight in the bike to prevent flex in the smaller triangles. The extra weight in the back wheel also reduces flex loss. He achieves this by not worrying about weight. His payoff is a better aerodynamic position. The more I think about it, the less impressed I am about his record. Merckx didn't lean way down like this. Clearly, Sosenka has a more aerodynamic bike by taking advantage of the fact that it is vertically too small for him. Take a look. http://www.sosenka.cz/m12.jpg |
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10-09.-2005, 03:08 PM
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#184 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 232
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Re: The One Hour Record
Quote:
Sosenka's set-up is not that much different from most tall riders. When people start getting as tall as he is, it usually comes more from their limbs than from their torso. So, long legs, short torso, and long arms = long seat tube, short top tube, and a big drop to the bars because of the long arms. Is he in a more extreme position than Merckx? Yes. Is this wrong? No. If Merckx was smarter, he would have been in a more aerodynamic postion also. But that sort of knowledge wasn't as refined back then as it is know. Clearly Sosenka's set-up was pure smarts. The bike fit his body. He is primarily a TT'er. They usually have agressive aerodynamic tucks. The hour is a TT. He clearly mimicked his aero tuck as much as possible with the classic position.
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Taras |
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10-09.-2005, 11:44 PM
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#185 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,557
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Re: The One Hour Record
Quote:
Yeah, I found it really enlightening just how much voodoo stuff is esposed by even the supposed greats of cycling... reading the link that catabolic jones put about Colnago drilling out everything on Merckx's bike to make it lighter just makes you wonder how of much thier succuss was in spite of what they did rather than because of what they did... also I will never buy a Colnago, geesh what a moron  |
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13-09.-2005, 08:31 AM
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#186 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
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Re: The One Hour Record
Quote:
Heheheh. I tend to agree with you about the drilling and the weakening of the frame. On the other hand, very few riders would be that insightful. It probably helped scare a few riders who didn't have the resources & specialists to drill their bikes too. |
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13-09.-2005, 08:40 AM
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#187 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
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Re: The One Hour Record
Quote:
I do agree with you about Sosenka and his brilliant interpretation of the rules such that it probably created such an advantage that he wouldn't otherwise have broken the record were it not for his radical positioning of the seat and a relatively small vertical frame height. Yet he is within the rules because seat height apparently is not addressed in the rules. Merckx failed to see it. I wonder what the result would have been had he done what Sosenka did. Merckx is tall, but not nearly as tall as Sosenka, who stands something like 6 inches taller than Merckx. Still, Merckx could have done it had he thought of it. The sad thing is that we want to compare the greats against their true potential, not their aerodynamic posture. I'm not so sure Sosenka stands close to Merckx in that regard now that I've seen Sosenka's radical posture. It's not even very apparent until you look at the bike. While he's sitting on it, it's pretty hard to tell how dramatic it is. If Sosenka breaks it again, maybe he'll get even more radical with the seat and frame height. That ought to be interesting. |
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27-12.-2005, 05:03 AM
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#188 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
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Re: The One Hour Record
It's interesting that with a small variation comes a different record holder. Well, I guess it isn't a small variation given that the average speed goes from about 50 kph to about 66 kph. What I'm talking about is the Derny paced hour record. This is done indoors on a track with the help of a Derny motorbike pacer. Here's a short video clip of the October 29, 2005 attempt by Magnus Backstedt.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...G=Google+Search |
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04-01.-2006, 05:28 AM
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#189 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
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Re: The One Hour Record
I guess that link isn't working anymore. Here's a summary of the attempt with some good photos too. http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/news/a...698790342926288 It's interesting that the one hour motorbike aided record (66.1+ kph http://www.londoncyclesport.com/news_2005/magnus_d.html ) is not even close to the one hour record for an HPV with no motor support (84.2+ kph http://www.hpva.us/hpvadempr.html ).
Of course, the one hour record which is the subject of this thread is still the 49.7 kph set by Sosenka in July, 2005. He talked about making another attempt at it by the end of 2005, but he didn't. |
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05-01.-2006, 09:40 AM
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#190 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 29
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Re: The One Hour Record
Just goes to show how great of a record Boardman set in the aero position back in 1996. 56.3 kph
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06-01.-2006, 10:48 AM
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#191 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
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Re: The One Hour Record
Quote:
Why would you find that impressive? it was because of aerodynamics, and if you go all the way with aerodynamics, you get an hpv at 84 kph. I harped a little about Sosenka's position too because i think his height gave him an advantage in bending the rules on the UCI bike that a shorter person, like Boardman, would not have. Let's face it, you can only raise the seat much higher if you are tall. What was impressive about Boardman is that he broke Merckx' record without aerodynamic advantage. I don't really feel like Sosenka's record is quite on the same par because of the aerodynamic advantage of the high seat and relatively low handlebars. It was not at all like Boardman's version of the UCI standard whereby Chris broke the record by a few meters without using the superman position or a high seat. |
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06-01.-2006, 01:00 PM
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#192 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 29
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Re: The One Hour Record
If Boardman had ridden the record on the same day as his aero record using the UCI version, he would gone over 51 kph.
That is why his 56 kph is so impressive.  |
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06-01.-2006, 01:16 PM
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#193 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,756
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Re: The One Hour Record
was Sosenka's bike carbon?
I thought the new rules said the bike must be steel, which is why Boardman rode the Ultrafoco Look |
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07-01.-2006, 12:41 AM
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#194 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 232
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Re: The One Hour Record
Quote:
You seem to think that because Sosenka shattered the record that it was done unfairly. He may not have looked like Boardman during his attempt, But then again, neither did Boardman look exactly like Merckx either. If you look at their torso angle, all three of them, you will find that they aren't that different. Merckx and Boardman both have horizontal torsos during their record attempt, and so did Sosenka, with Merckx being least extreme, and Boardman being the flattest. It's there, look at the pictures. Sosenka in fact may have been less aerodynamic because his torso is so short and forces him to take more of a hunch instead of a laid out position. Don't forget that Boardman used a 16 cm stem on his hour record bike to stretch him out, so in fact, Boardman did use aerodynamic advantages to break Merckx' hour record. I can't recall his road bike having an extension that long. Sosenka didn't bend any rules. That's just how a bike would fit him. His road bikes have a similar drop to the handlebars. In fact, there is only about a 1-2 inch difference in handlebar height between his hour record bike an his road bikes. Had they made a more "normal" looking bike for Sosenka, it would be illegal as the distance from the headset to the bottom bracket would be in excess of what is currently allowed. A bike like that would also put him in more of a superman-like position because his arms are so long, then you would be harping on that. If you want to take away the merits of hour records based on a riders physical makeup, how about we take away Greame Obree's records because he had a lung capacity in excess of 6 Litres or Indurain's records because he just produced so much damn power?
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Taras |
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08-01.-2006, 05:16 PM
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#195 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
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Re: The One Hour Record
Quote:
Neither Obree nor Indurain broke the UCI one hour record. Both of them used aerodynamic advantage which was later ruled not allowable. It's too bad that they didn't know about this ahead of time. Particularly, I'd like to have seen Indurain have a go at it with strict UCI rules, which other riders had already bent but UCI had not ruled on by the time he made his attempt. He assumed his attempt when he did it was within the rules. As it stands, we don't know how he would have done on the Merckx/UCI standard bike. That's a shame. He was a great rider. The superman position would help Boardman because he is so short. For him to get an aerodynamic advantage from downward lean, on the other hand, he'd probably have to have a smaller wheel in the front and thus break the rules. So that option he probably didn't consider. The superman position didn't require a smaller wheel. Of course, it was later ruled illegal. As for Sosenka's position, it's not that easy to see this from the camera shots. If you look closely, it's apparent, especially when you see the bike without him on it. Here's a photo of him after the race: http://www.cbw.cz/phprs/2005072523.html Notice that his lean is flatter than Merck' or Boardman's even when his arms are straight. Then look at this photo while he's actually riding. See how bent his arms are? http://www.sportal.com.au/otherspor...i=news&id=68573 Now go back to those two photos you posted. See the difference? I admit that it is not easy to see this. You almost have to notice the bike first and then look for the posture change while he rides it. It's a very subtle difference, but when you're cruising at 50 kph, a subtle aerodynamic shift can make a big difference in an hour. Sosenka didn't break the rules. They were there for everyone the same. He (or his team) was just better at working the rules to his advantage than were the others. I call it bending the rules. Well, that's not exactly fair either, I guess. It's more like taking the rules to the limit of their gray area and staying on the legal side. As for lung capacity, 6 liters is good but not particularly remarkable. Indurain's was greater than 6 liters. Also, comparing horsepower and lung capacity are not the same as comparing aerodynamic advantage, which is the heart of our discussion about posture on the bike. After all, you don't need more horsepower or greater lungs if you can improve your aerodynamics. Those other features, which are perfectly legal (big lungs, big strong heart, high anaerobic threshold, low lactic acid production, superior rhythm relating to nervous system coordination) are held forth as advantages that riders might trumpet. You don't have to be ashamed of or hide natural advantages. In fact, you can (and they do) boast about them. You do bring up some good points though. Sosenka's height is so much taller than the typical rider and any of the other hour record holders. It's not like he decided to create rules that were to his advantage. He just so happened to find that they were. |
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