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Now Democrats Embrace Fundamentalism

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Old 21-06.-2007, 01:32 AM   #31
ndbiker
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Default Re: Now Democrats Embrace Fundamentalism

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The ideal is very hard to attain. The Government of a society should be strong and disciplined but it should also stand for genuine liberty and personal freedom.
The problem with America and Europe and also the U.K. is the political system seems worn out, stale and insincere. Politicians are big on talk of democracy and Christianity yet don't practise either.
For a start, people needs to be included in electoral processes. No way in this world should Bush and Blair simply decide to drag us all into a war without even a referendum. People were just ignored and only oil companies and big corporations heard out. This is not democracy. Democracy means rule of the people but what we see in practice is an Oligarchy - an elite rule of the upper class (Bush and his associates).
What people want is jobs, prosperity, security, defence, social order, decent health care e.t.c. We don't want cheap immigrant labour and sweat shop factories and we hope to see honest, sincere, accountable politicians.
Just for edification. The US is not a democracy. We are a republic and do not have referendums on every action of our government. Our referendums come when we elect those who represent us and our chief executive officer. Our government has changed in significant ways since its founding, most notably in the amount of power held by the federal government in relation to the state governments. The seventeenth amendment to our constitution allowed for the direct election of senators (they previously had been appointed by the state legislatures). While this may seem to be a good idea, its affect was to remove state governments representation in the federal government. The senators now answer and cater to constituents rather than their governments. Since this change the power of the federal government has ballooned and the states in many ways are relegated to being the administrators of federal programs. The tenth amendment has been largely ignored ("all powers not specifically given to the federal government shall be the pervue of the states - I paraphrase). Many issues which we consider contentious, abortion, social welfare, social security, health care, etc. are issues which a hundred years ago our federal government would not have considered touching as it was not power granted them by the constitution. Since it is now in the politicians interest to involve the federal government in these issues the states authority has been essentially usurped. I can't speak to the British form of government as I have only a basic understanding of your parlimentory government. Sorry for my ramble.
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Old 21-06.-2007, 03:03 AM   #32
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Default Re: Now Democrats Embrace Fundamentalism

No need to apologise. The post was informative and well written.

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Just for edification. The US is not a democracy. We are a republic and do not have referendums on every action of our government. Our referendums come when we elect those who represent us and our chief executive officer. Our government has changed in significant ways since its founding, most notably in the amount of power held by the federal government in relation to the state governments. The seventeenth amendment to our constitution allowed for the direct election of senators (they previously had been appointed by the state legislatures). While this may seem to be a good idea, its affect was to remove state governments representation in the federal government. The senators now answer and cater to constituents rather than their governments. Since this change the power of the federal government has ballooned and the states in many ways are relegated to being the administrators of federal programs. The tenth amendment has been largely ignored ("all powers not specifically given to the federal government shall be the pervue of the states - I paraphrase). Many issues which we consider contentious, abortion, social welfare, social security, health care, etc. are issues which a hundred years ago our federal government would not have considered touching as it was not power granted them by the constitution. Since it is now in the politicians interest to involve the federal government in these issues the states authority has been essentially usurped. I can't speak to the British form of government as I have only a basic understanding of your parlimentory government. Sorry for my ramble.
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Old 02-07.-2007, 02:56 PM   #33
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Default Re: Now Democrats Embrace Fundamentalism

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No need to apologise. The post was informative and well written.

There has always been interest in the religious beliefs of political figures in this country. Think about how it was considered somewhat noteworthy and controversial that JFK was the first Roman Catholic president. This scrutiny seems to have increased in the last 25 years. Fundamentalist Christians started taking a greater interest in politics due to such things as legalized abortion and taking prayer out of the public schools. They believed that the best course of action was to try and bring about change, so they started running for local offices, then branched out to bigger things. They gained some power and got re-elected, and discovered that their mentions of faith seemed to strike a chord with the electorate.

Because of that, it's not considered an election faux pas to talk candidly about matters of faith. From reading a book titled "Watching The English," I've found that the opposite is true over there. Mentioning religion while seeking votes would get a candidate little more than suspicious looks from the electorate. Tony Blair may be a devout Anglican Christian, but he doesn't talk about it much. Faith is a private matter over there. He's not a politician, but one of my favorite UK TV presenters is Alan Titchmarsh. He's reputed to be a devout Christian, but rarely talks about it. Unless he was hosting "Songs of Praise," I wouldn't expect to hear any mention of his faith.

The Democrats over here seemed pretty quiet last election about faith and religion. It's hard not to think that they saw themselves as too good for that sort of thing. The only thing I remember hearing from the Kerry camp was that he was Catholic, and there was a bit of attention to how he was Catholic and supported legalized abortion.

This is in no way meant to say that I don't think that Democrats can be people of faith, but their sudden attempts at Christian one-upmanship seem kind of cynical and hollow to me. Sort of like, "Well, it worked for Bush last time, so maybe we need to do that too." Even better would be, "Maybe if you mention God enough some of those Red State hicks will vote for us next time and put more Blue States on the map."

I have to disagree with the notion that Christianity as a whole is becoming stronger in the US. The politicians may talk about it more, but I think the Christian church as a whole has little influence, and what influence it has lessens every year. Church attendence figures may not be the most accurate measure, but the only time in the 20th century that saw significant increase was a ten to fifteen year period following WWII. The numbers have gone down ever since.
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Old 25-07.-2007, 07:43 AM   #34
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Rider, you don't strike me as a crackpot fundamentalist. Myself, I do find aspects of Christianity interesting but....
Now, take Muhammad Ali. At one time he was in an organisation that taught that white folks were devils and there was this crazy doctine of a UFO that was supposed to land.
However, later on, Ali split with the Nation Of Islam and started to read the Koran for himself. He made close friends with practising Jews and Christians. Before he was political but later on religion became peaceful and personal. I figure that's how it should be - private. I'm not really bothered what a politician believes so long as he's in favour of freedom and liberty and is tolerant.

If Ali's religious beliefs are so private, then why do you know what they are?

Also, perhaps you aren't being tolerant, if the voicing of religious beliefs by political candidates is "worrying" to you. It's just pandering anyway. During the Clinton years, we were subjected to watching him walk out of church every Sunday with a Bible in his hand, holding Hillary's hand, especially whenever he was in "trouble." Come to think of it, they never show Bush leaving church.
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Old 25-07.-2007, 11:52 AM   #35
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Old 26-07.-2007, 11:49 PM   #36
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Default Re: Now Democrats Embrace Fundamentalism

The Church operated as a means of social control over the centuries and it's the same with Islam in countries such as Iran.
For example, in Tsarist Russia (prior to Lenin's revolution), masses of impoverished peasants and workers were brainwashed into the belief that the Tsar was God's representative in Russia. It was God's will that the Tsar was in power e.t.c. So, the Tsar and his family lived in luxury while the masses toiled.
And what about George Bush? Isn't it the same thing happening again? The neos and fundamentalists would have the average American believe good old George is acting on behalf of God. It was God who supposedly told Bush to sort out the Middle East e.t.c.
As I've said before, I don't have an issue with serious, free-thinking Christians or even Moslems who find some comfort in a personal belief system. However, the Church and organised political Islam are a different kettle of fish. The Church has a record of poor human rights practices throughout history which is why entire populations of Indians were wiped out by Spanish Christian fundamentalists some centuries ago.
I found it intensely worrying that American politicians were being forced to put their religious credentials down on the line just to be in office.

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If Ali's religious beliefs are so private, then why do you know what they are?

Also, perhaps you aren't being tolerant, if the voicing of religious beliefs by political candidates is "worrying" to you. It's just pandering anyway. During the Clinton years, we were subjected to watching him walk out of church every Sunday with a Bible in his hand, holding Hillary's hand, especially whenever he was in "trouble." Come to think of it, they never show Bush leaving church.
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