Page 3 - It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

06-06.-2007, 03:51 PM

#31

sugaken

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

Agreed, there's a lot packed into that statement. Andy, your economy of words is inspiring

I strongly second this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

And given your word choice disclaimer I take it you're referring to LT as in the point where blood lactate begins to rise at a steeper exponential rate from a flatter baseline, not the LT we see in articles and training guides that is used in place of OBLA or interchangebly with FTP?

Excuse me for cutting in here, but I don't think a distinction that strict is necessary, except FTP. Afterall, LT and OBLA (and can I throw in MLSS here?) are strongly correlated with one another.

But why "except FTP"? Well, for a starter, it's not "a physiological determinant" in itself but rather a production of various physiological (and mental) determinants.

But I'm no exercise physiologist, so I will gladly stand corrected if I'm wrong here.

Ken

06-06.-2007, 09:30 PM	#32
Alex Simmons Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 1,743	Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but The problem with LT of course is one of practical application, it requires formal testing with a specific protocol to estimate, wheras FTP, while it is a higher wattage than LT, only requires one to ride their bike and inspect power data to estimate it. Hence the use of "Functional" in FTP. __________________ http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/ http://www.cyclecoach.com/

06-06.-2007, 11:40 PM

#33

acoggan

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

given your word choice disclaimer I take it you're referring to LT as in the point where blood lactate begins to rise at a steeper exponential rate from a flatter baseline, not the LT we see in articles and training guides that is used in place of OBLA or interchangebly with FTP?

Actually, I was hoping that disclaimer would cause people to focus on the "...most important physiological determinant..." part.

07-06.-2007, 12:58 AM

#34

daveryanwyoming

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Actually, I was hoping that disclaimer would cause people to focus on the "...most important physiological determinant..." part.

There I go being literal again and focusing on the wrong part

07-06.-2007, 02:24 AM	#35
Pendejo Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 528	Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but I really wonder if in the attempt to make the study of athletic performance into a rigorous science we've reached, or gone past, the point of diminishing returns: too much data that will ultimately reveal nothing helpful. An analogy would be stock market analysis. There's no end to the data that can be accumulated or the ways it can be sliced and diced. But there is no hidden key to the stock market that can be found underneath it all, no Holy Grail. Almost any stock-picking scheme will work well sometimes, and not others, and there's no way to tell beforehand what those times are. I think the same is true for athletic performance. A training regimen might work well for one person but not another, and there's no way to tell beforehand. Because no two athletes are alike genetically, physiologically, and mentally (and even the same athlete is not the same from one time to another), it is impossible to duplicate the initial conditions in experiments, something that is necessary in order to reach valid scientific conclusions. In the end, in my opinion, the most important bit of data will be the intuitions of an experienced coach and those of the individual athlete, with course corrections along the way. The sort of detailed numerical analyses of performance data that dominate some of these threads might be interesting, but I doubt that much of it is making many people faster out on the roads.

07-06.-2007, 02:31 AM	#36
rmur17 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 974	Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but [QUOTE=Pendejo]I really wonder if in the attempt to make the study of athletic performance into a rigorous science we've reached, or gone past, the point of diminishing returns: too much data that will ultimately reveal nothing helpful. An analogy would be stock market analysis. There's no end to the data that can be accumulated or the ways it can be sliced and diced. But there is no hidden key to the stock market that can be found underneath it all, no Holy Grail. Almost any stock-picking scheme will work well sometimes, and not others, and there's no way to tell beforehand what those times are. I think the same is true for athletic performance. A training regimen might work well for one person but not another, and there's no way to tell beforehand. Because no two athletes are alike genetically, physiologically, and mentally (and even the same athlete is not the same from one time to another), it is impossible to duplicate the initial conditions in experiments, something that is necessary in order to reach valid scientific conclusions. In the end, in my opinion, the most important bit of data will be the intuitions of an experienced coach and those of the individual athlete, with course corrections along the way. The sort of detailed numerical analyses of performance data that dominate some of these threads might be interesting, but I doubt that much of it is making many people faster out on the roads.[/QUOTE] au contraire mes ami __________________ rmur

07-06.-2007, 03:12 AM

#37

peterwright

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendejo

I really wonder if in the attempt to make the study of athletic performance into a rigorous science we've reached, or gone past, the point of diminishing returns: too much data that will ultimately reveal nothing helpful.

An analogy would be stock market analysis. There's no end to the data that can be accumulated or the ways it can be sliced and diced. But there is no hidden key to the stock market that can be found underneath it all, no Holy Grail. Almost any stock-picking scheme will work well sometimes, and not others, and there's no way to tell beforehand what those times are.

I think the same is true for athletic performance. A training regimen might work well for one person but not another, and there's no way to tell beforehand. Because no two athletes are alike genetically, physiologically, and mentally (and even the same athlete is not the same from one time to another), it is impossible to duplicate the initial conditions in experiments, something that is necessary in order to reach valid scientific conclusions.

In the end, in my opinion, the most important bit of data will be the intuitions of an experienced coach and those of the individual athlete, with course corrections along the way. The sort of detailed numerical analyses of performance data that dominate some of these threads might be interesting, but I doubt that much of it is making many people faster out on the roads.

That's a bit like saying that if you were badly injured, you would rather trust yourself to a 19th century doc with good experience & intuition than a young doc using the latest technology and principles at a new ER...

Of course the best coaches will use experience and intuition - but this will be in conjunction with the very latest developments in training science.

07-06.-2007, 03:46 AM

#38

Alex Simmons

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendejo

Myself and clients are living proof that's not the case.

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07-06.-2007, 04:31 AM

#39

acoggan

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendejo

The sort of detailed numerical analyses of performance data that dominate some of these threads might be interesting, but I doubt that much of it is making many people faster out on the roads.

If you asked me (which you didn't

), I'd say that the probability that somebody would benefit from some of the various "tools" that are now available hinges upon two things:

1) how close they've come to reaching the limit of their ability when relying on purely empirical/experiential methods; and

2) the extent to which they can fully grasp and apply the various scientific/analytical methods.

Since the majority of those who have previosuly made it to the top presumably were already doing quite well in terms of #1, I don't think that a more quantitative approach is necessarily going to make the fastest significantly faster. There are, however, a lot of people - in fact, quite possibly most - who underperform relative to their ability because they haven't (yet) been able to figure things out purely empirically/based on experience.* For them, route #2 can pay huge dividends, by "speeding up the learning curve" and making more people just plain fast. (In turn, this requires those at the very top to raise the level of their game, as more pressure is exerted from below.)

*Even the most elite athletes don't necessarily always "get it right" - for example, I saw data recently for a runner who finished just off the podium in the Olympics which suggested that they'd badly mistimed their peak, something that a more analytical/quantitative approach should have helped them avoid.

07-06.-2007, 05:17 AM

#40

frenchyge

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendejo

Fortunately, the laws governing energy and physics are more predictable and repeatable than the myriad perceptions, circumstances, and manipulations that affect how people value stocks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendejo

The sort of detailed numerical analyses of performance data that dominate some of these threads might be interesting, but I doubt that much of it is making many people faster out on the roads.

Within the perceived context that I believe it was made, I actually agree with this statement (except for the use of the word 'dominate', which I believe is hyperbole). That is, lurkers snipping *detailed* training routines from posts directed toward other riders, without having any means to check whether the lurker shares physiological characteristics with that other rider, seems akin to trial-and-error or using Bicycling magazine articles for coaching advice (or perhaps picking stocks from Money magazine's Hot List).

Now, I'm more of the opinion that more threads are dominated by 'generic' advice which is intended to be adapted to the reader's specific situation prior to use. I also believe that principled advice of that nature is more generally useful, although it does require the additional steps and fine tuning on the part of the user to be successful. I'd be willing to bet that the generic advice offered here is making *many* people faster on their bikes.

07-06.-2007, 06:27 AM	#41
Pendejo Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 528	Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but [QUOTE=peterwright]That's a bit like saying that if you were badly injured, you would rather trust yourself to a 19th century doc with good experience & intuition than a young doc using the latest technology and principles at a new ER...QUOTE] Actually, Peter, I think you've inadvertantly selected an analogy that supports my general contention. The U.S. has perhaps the most advanced, "well-trained," and scientific medical care in the world. Yet we're way down the list of countries when it comes to various indicators of public health (infant mortality, heart disease, life expectancy, etc.). Our population is obscenely overmedicated (including children for ADD, depression, etc.) Procedures and medicines are touted as the new best thing (heart stents, estrogen, accutane, back surgery, and on and on) and then later found to have serious problems that should limit their use. I have several personal examples. Two years ago I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism (diminished thyroid function). Two doctors concurred. Both wanted me to start taking thyroid replacement pills (forever). I resisted. I trusted my body to make the effort to readjust itself. The following year I was tested again and showed completely normal thyroid function. I wonder how many people out there are taking meds for thyroid, cholesterol, blood pressure, etc. that were prescribed prematurely, just based on "looking at the numbers," without first trying more natural means of dealing with the problem and giving it time. Too much science, too many numbers, too many charts and graphs. When it comes to what human beings are able to do, whether you're talking about disease or athletic performance, you need a balance of the Western and the Eastern perspectives. (Just so that some of you don't conclude that my opinions originate from some humanistic-afraid-of-numbers-and-science temperament, I have an M.S. in nuclear physics and a Ph.D. in Philosophy of Science and Logic.)

07-06.-2007, 06:35 AM

#42

acoggan

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendejo

The U.S. has perhaps the most advanced, "well-trained," and scientific medical care in the world. Yet we're way down the list of countries when it comes to various indicators of public health (infant mortality, heart disease, life expectancy, etc.).

And just how much of that, do you suppose, relates to the health habits of the population as a whole, vs. the medical treatment that they (often don't, for the financially disadvantaged) receive?

07-06.-2007, 06:38 AM

#43

frenchyge

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendejo

I have an M.S. in nuclear physics and a Ph.D. in Philosophy of Science and Logic.)

Nuclear physics??

...and you can't tell the difference between 'predictable' chaos and the stock market?

07-06.-2007, 07:19 AM

#44

Pendejo

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

And just how much of that, do you suppose, relates to the health habits of the population as a whole, vs. the medical treatment that they (often don't, for the financially disadvantaged) receive?

I don't know, Andy, do you? But your rhetorical question seems to presuppose that the citizens of the other advanced countries have better overall health habits than we in the U.S., and I don't think that's true. If you think you can make a convincing case for it, I'm happy to hear it, but it's probably not worth it because it's just a footnote to our main discussion.

07-06.-2007, 07:25 AM

#45

daveryanwyoming

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Re: It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendejo

...The sort of detailed numerical analyses of performance data that dominate some of these threads might be interesting, but I doubt that much of it is making many people faster out on the roads.

In a literal sense I have to agree with you. The data hasn't directly made me faster on the road. But I find collecting and analyzing the data keeps me motivated. I'm always interested in setting my next 20 minute or 5 minute personal best and that gets me excited about going out on my L4 and L5 days. It was even enough to get me on the trainer for three to four SST sessions a week all winter when I've always hated trainers. But you're right, the data and the analysis of that data hasn't made me faster, the time spent training coupled with good recovery have made me faster.

If data doesn't interest or motivate you and you don't care if you've set a PB or held even on a given day then just go out and ride. Personally that day to day challenge indoors or out is highly motivating almost like my personal race series that can happen rain or shine every training day of the year. I might go slow in a stout headwind or up a steeper hill or even up a loose single track trail but the watts don't lie and I always have the chance to challenge myself regardless of the conditions. I got dropped up a long climb during a road race about a month ago and figured I was off the back and out of contention. But I chased hard in part because I was racing for my own best power over the distance not just the chance to contest the field sprint. Over the next hour I caught and passed a number of other riders and finished in the points. I'm not sure I would have had the willpower to go it alone in the wind for that long unless I was riding my own personal race against the PM.

Then there's the balance of exercise to rest and the process of building and peaking. I've tracked miles, hours, waking HR you name it over the years but I've never felt so dialed on balancing training and recovery as I do with the Performance Manager. I take rest days with confidence and train hard with equal confidence because I've got some meaningful metrics to keep an eye on. I know I can tolerate many days with a TSB down to -20 but know I need rest if it drops much below that. I know how I feel for a given CTL ramp and know when to back off of a tough build. Hours or miles alone never gave me that confidence in terms of when to go hard and dig a deep hole and when to back off and rest.

Collecting and analyzing all this data also lets me visually track progress in terms of FTP, points on the Mean Maximal Curve, weekly TSS, calories expended during a workout or week and a host of other things that I find both very motivating and very useful in terms of making training, rest, build and taper decisions.

So on one hand I agree with you, the data alone doesn't make you faster. In the end the only data that really counts is recorded in your legs. On the other hand the motivation that data provides and the feedback and planning it facilitates is priceless and has definitely helped me get a lot faster.

YMMV,
-Dave

Last edited by daveryanwyoming : 07-06.-2007 at 07:35 AM.

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