Page 3 - Racing Etiquette

25-04.-2007, 12:19 PM	#31
wilmar13 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,557	Re: Racing Etiquette As someone who used to bitch about getting outsprinted and has had a lot of success this year via breakaways... the best way to initiate a break is to attack into a strong cross wind... then as everyone is strung out single file and you feel like you are dead... attack harder with all you are worth. Hopefully 2 or 3 or 5 other guys will come with you as everyone else pops or finds themselves too far back in the single file line to bridge. Then everyone else is racing for Bozoville.

25-04.-2007, 12:21 PM	#32
wilmar13 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,557	Re: Racing Etiquette What about attacking through the feedzone? Major faux pas or fair game since you carried 5 water bottles and a bag of bagels for the first 50 miles?

25-04.-2007, 01:54 PM	#33
doctorSpoc Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 883	Re: Racing Etiquette some suggestions... - warm up well and attack right from the line... see who comes with you.. you may even want to wait a bit if someone promising is coming up to you (sounds like you know the competition by now - as you are moving up to start your attack... tap the guys who you recognize as being strong and whisper... let's go... - just attack and see who comes with you... don't attack all day long... choose your spots. e.g. when a rider who attacked has been brought back (working riders will be tired and unlikely to respond to your attack), after the strongest working rider has just taken a turn, into a corner - attack with about ~1-2kms to go when people are just setting up for the inevitable sprint.. many will be unlikely to commit fully to following you then if you're not one of the strongest sprinters.. then leaving it to a sprint is just dumb... you're conceding the race before it even began.. you might as well have stayed home. the only saving grace is that you got a workout if that is your priority for the day... but cycling is about 1st man or woman accross the line. @Bigbananabike - DQ for not working enough?? that's got to be about the stupidest thing i've heard in a LONG time... this is cycling, and tactics is an integral part... everywhere else on the planet that is a perfectly valid tactic... as others have said... McEwen, Petacchi etc. would be out of a job if this tactic was not allowed.. it's there job to do what it takes for them to win and it's everyone elses job to do whatever it takes within the rules to win as well... if you let that sprinter come to the line with you, then that's your bad, not theirs. Last edited by doctorSpoc : 25-04.-2007 at 02:00 PM.

25-04.-2007, 06:57 PM

#34

Bigbananabike

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 630

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote:

Originally Posted by boudie

I am a sprinter who is 200 pounds. I have a tough time on the hills but get sick of the whining. The pencil necked geeks always complain in the crits when they get pimped. I take my beating on hilly races and no one can hear me because i'm out of breath off the back

. Why not just start practicing your sprints??? or your breakaways. No one complains when the sprinters get dropped in hilly races. I used to get dropped all the time in races and no one complain....once i could get to the line no one complained....now i can get to the line with a sprint and win people whine.

I have guys yell at me to pull in a small group on a hilly circuit race. I look up and say "race your own race"....... a few minutes later I'm off the back.

In a flat race I sit in and win and the whining happens. Sick of it....why don't the riders in the Tour De France "protest" when Robbie McEwen wins a sprint. He usually touches the wind for about 50 meters of a 6 hour race.....crazy people. Grow up....shut up and race.

I have a question though....funny story....i was in a hilly hilly road race with 7000 feet of climbing. Only 15 starters and I got 8th because 6 dropped....any ways it was a long out & back. I was riding with one other rider after the one huge climb..... and after a while of rotating i told him i couldn't pull anymore

. We rolled for a while and had to climb back 3500 feet shortly. He started attacking me and I was able to stick to him on the flats. I wanted to just get home....well i decided to try to take a pull and when I did get in front of him for a bit....he attacked again. I was pissed....he attacked on the climbs and i stayed with him. He attacked on the downhill and i can descend and i was pissed as he went around 3 cars at 50mph + . I caught him and i thought about sprinting him at the end for 10 miles....i went back and forth for like 30 minutes on whether i would sprint.....finally i decided he tried to drop me and i am a sprinter. I sprinted him at the end and won by 5 bike lengths. He was not super happy about the whole situation. I came back to some friends at the finish line and he proceeded to hurl multiple profanities my way. i just rode by and ignored him and met my friends who cheered me on. You would think it was the World championships.....get a life people. If you can't sprint....improve your sprint. Lance Armstrong i heard wasn't the best sprinter but he won his share of criteriums.....just curious what people think about this situation. It was weird because there was only us two in the "peleton".

==========================================================
You say in a flat race you sit in and win - why don't you do some more work in the lead up to the sprint? Aim for a faster time overall instead of just sitting in.
The Tour de France is a completely different kettle of fish to club and general individual races(here at least).
Stop listening to the "pencil necked geeks" and take your own advice - shut up and race!

30-04.-2007, 12:09 AM	#35
peterlip Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Melbourne, Aus Posts: 355	Re: Racing Etiquette Thanks everyone for your tips and ideas. Update: Well, two weeks after posing the original question, I was chomping at the bit to get back on the road and try a thing or two suggested by forum contributors. Today's race was 5 laps of a 10km circuit. About 20 in our grade, mild weather, just enough rain to make the road damp, no wind and with the biggest climb being 10m, you'd have to call it a flat course. The initial pace was ridiculously slow, so I spent the first 2.5 laps out the front, sharing with 3 or 4 others, keeping the pace up. I figured if it was too slow, any breakaway attempt would certainly fail. After the second lap, I started playing with the field a bit. Each time I was leading, when passed by someone, I would slow peddle to allow a gap to open to the new leader. This forced everyone behind me to have to bridge a bit of a gap. I also paused through the corners to force a bit of effort for the bunch to stay together when accelerating out of the corners. After two and a bit laps, I moved back to position 6 or 7th to rest. Then, when turning onto the back straight, the guy next to me wobbled a bit, and looked down at his bike, looking for a problem. Not sure what happened, but between me slow pedalling through the corner, and him looking down, a gap of 7 or 8 metres opened in front of us. Time to break it up a bit. I jumped. Passed the leaders, and they all jumped too. The idea wasn’t necessarily to make a break, but with a gap between the leaders and the second half of the pack, I thought we might be able to break the pack in two. Not many wanted to work too hard, and I didn’t want to sacrifice myself, so after about 1km, we were all back together. I moved back to 6 or 7th again. No break, but make them work I say. A lap later, around the same spot, another guy jumped and made a 10m break. I paused to see if he was going to continue, he was, so I jumped also, now with a 20m break to make. I made sure not to drag any one with me. We shared the lead, and after about 1km, I glanced to see another had joined us. As he passed me, I glanced behind again happy to see no one else had come with him, but we only had a 40m gap to the pack. We continued to work together for another 2km rotating well, but I was starting to feel the pinch and started to delay my rotation to attempt to catch my breath. The pack was still only 40 or 50m behind, so my fellow break-ies decided to pack it in and retreat back into the pack. On the plus side, the main pack lost a few riders in the chase, so it wasn’t a total waste. Lesson 1. If I’m going to make a break, do less work leading up to it, otherwise it will and has cost me. This is going to be a hard lesson to learn. I’ve only been racing for 3 months, and have years of pack training where everyone continually takes their turn. Lesson 2. Work on fitness. Back together, I moved back to 6 or 7th again and waited for the final sprint. Unfortunately with 2km to go, we were caught by a collection of A and B graders who were overtaking each other, and then us. These guys still had another lap to go, so while faster as they passed us, we soon started to come back as our final stages heated up. Some of us started to tail the other grades. Too many bikes, a bit messy, especially given we were on public roads. A few of our grade, pulled back. I decided to do the same, and finished somewhere around 8th. Aside from the disappointing finish, I really enjoyed a race which was a little different from the norm. Talking to one of the work horses after the race, he was one of two responsible for bringing the pack back to our breakaway. He's a strong rider for our grade, and I think if it wasn't for him, we may have escaped. Without spelling anything out, the seed has been planted for the following weeks. I suspect that the 6 week spell of no breakaways has been broken, and will continue to be broken. I look forward to next week, although rumour has it that this course has a hill or two. At 83kg on a bike that has minimal carbon, hills are not what I call fun. __________________ Road: Felt F70 Commute: Raceline Comp LX

30-04.-2007, 02:27 AM

#36

tonyzackery

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: Seattle, WA/Vancouver BC

Posts: 347

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekiwi

Do you hold the same rationale when there are hill races? That the non climbers should squeal "not fair" when the whippets attack the hill after sitting in for the flat periods prior?

Im not a sprinter by any stretch of the imagination, but I dont consider it a "right" that having lead most of the bunch Im in some way entitled to take the win. Cyclist are made up of many strengths: Hill Climbers, Sprinters, Time Trialists etc. Each class of rider is as equally valid/skilled as the other.

As a climber my focus must be to nullify the strengths of those around me. That means attacking the hills and making it hurt real bad. If it means surging for 2 mins in a near all out sprint at halfway, then thats what it takes. Sometimes it repeated surges for 20secs every min to destroy their legs and hope I recover quicker, otherwise I will always get swamped at the finish.

The notion that you could use a legal approach to favour a certain rider I find just ludicrous. Maybe it is something about the Downunder approach, but seriously whilst we hate with a passion any rider who sits in, or who bridges across and brings this bunch with them, they are all valid tactics and ones which you have to try and counter.

Since shifting from running to cycling Ive been amazed at how tactical cycling is. If you dont like it, suggest you take up running.

I notice you misunderstood my post. No problem...but try reading my posts again and you will understand that we are on the same side. And no, I don't like running so I won't be taking it up...

28-05.-2007, 09:56 AM

#37

boudie

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2004

Posts: 10

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigbananabike

Why would I care about a faster time? I could care less about our time as long as I get the W. If you race a 60 minute criterium your time is 60 minutes....if you have a 250 meter sprint you don't have much choice?

03-06.-2007, 03:08 AM

#38

recursive

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 3

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigbananabike

My goal is usually to win while doing the least amount of work possible. Why would you do any more work than that unless you're also trying to get a certain type of workout? The purpose of a race is to cross the line first, not to make everyone feel good.

03-06.-2007, 08:05 AM

#39

Bigbananabike

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 630

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote:

Originally Posted by recursive

============================================================
We're a caring and sharing club.

Everybody aims(including officials) for everybody to cross the line at the same time(sometimes its a little difficult to manage - we have to use both sides of the road), and we're all given the same finishing time - from 17 year old speed punks to 90 year old grandmothers who sometimes have to do the course in their wheelchairs.

After the finish and between cups of tea and scones we have a big group hug.
I may not make the Giro de Italia team but I drive home from my "race" on Saturday afternoons with a smile on my dial that just won't quit

Now that's what its really all about isn't it guys?

03-06.-2007, 01:48 PM

#40

tonyzackery

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: Seattle, WA/Vancouver BC

Posts: 347

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigbananabike

Now that's what its really all about isn't it guys?

Sounds all nice and warm and fuzzy...but it ain't racin'...When in a "race", the goal is to win...period. End of story...

03-06.-2007, 02:25 PM

#41

Bigbananabike

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 630

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyzackery

Sounds all nice and warm and fuzzy...but it ain't racin'...When in a "race", the goal is to win...period. End of story...

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You've missed something vital with my last post...humour...."period. End of story..."

03-06.-2007, 02:29 PM

#42

recursive

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 3

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigbananabike

Now that's what its really all about isn't it guys?

Do you get gold star stickers or certificates of achievement? Or maybe both? Sounds very positive and self-affirming.

But for realz, the whole attraction of racing to me is that there are winners and losers, and any racing tactic is fair game. If you felt your victory was sniped by a sprinter who sat in, you should complain to yourself for crappy tactics, not the officials.

11-06.-2007, 09:22 AM

#43

brycer

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: Australia

Posts: 27

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterlip

Unfortunately with 2km to go, we were caught by a collection of A and B graders who were overtaking each other, and then us. These guys still had another lap to go, so while faster as they passed us, we soon started to come back as our final stages heated up. Some of us started to tail the other grades. Too many bikes, a bit messy, especially given we were on public roads.

Which vets club you race with? I just signed up for Southern - doing D grade at the moment.

We arent allowed to draft bunches from other grades.

That screwed me this week when A grade went by and we were doing only 2-3kph slower at that stage. Had to back it off and give them 10 metres clearance.

Anyway based on my limited experience it seems in lower grades no-one wants to roll turns and put the hurt on the field. It comes down to individuals. If 3-4 guys got organised it would totally change the dynamic of the race - and find out a lot of the field. From what I can see they just want someone to tow them along but will chase if you go off the front.

The other issue with most of the vets courses are they are dead flat - which makes it very tough to get away without people co-operating. So standard tactics for most seem to be to sit on the bunch for 60kms and then fight out a mass sprint.

Last week we had a good sized hill - so I stayed on the front on the way up and when we got to the crest put the hammer down and went for it - that worked as they were expecting to cruise down the hill and get their HR back down. Net result was 800m break with 5 following. Dropped 3 of them in the next set of rolling hills

But then the last two just sucked wheel to the finish and rounded me up.

The lesson was if you are going to make a break you must commit 100% to it and be prepared to smoke yourself if it fails. No good giving it 80% - you end up having worked hard for nothing.

I also noticed that most people resolutely refuse a turn on the front - this week one guy refused three times but wanted to suck 2/3rd wheel all day. So with these guys you have to hold your real estate and force them out into the breeze. Elbow here or there.

Often with everyone being scared of the front the pace can get positively pedestrian. On the bell lap I reckon it would almost end up with the field track standing waiting for someone to break.

This week I got bored and lead the front for the last couple of laps and got the pace up to 38-40kph from 32-34kph. As a result we caught C grade on the last one which proves the point on the mentality at work here I think.

Last edited by brycer : 11-06.-2007 at 09:45 AM.

11-06.-2007, 11:08 AM

#44

gil99

Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 21

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote below from bigbannanabike:

Quote:

Another option - Put in a protest against the winner if they're someone who has just sat in and not worked. Our club takes this very seriously and the protest is likely to be upheld - so the sprinters have to work too.

I used to fall for this in my early 20s. I'd be one of the ones working my butt off and some scumbag(I can still remember them) would burgle a place in the finish sprint

. I was too green to protest. Some times I or someone else would give them a word in the bunch while we were riding - that helped.
If you do it and it succeeds then others will hopefully get the idea that they can't just sit in and need to be seen to be doing work and also that you're someone who's not to be messed with.

To the OP, this would be a good example of poor, sad, pathetic bike racing etiquette. Please dear Lord, ride your bike more and train smarter to win.

11-06.-2007, 11:17 AM

#45

brycer

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: Australia

Posts: 27

Re: Racing Etiquette

Quote:

Originally Posted by gil99

Quote below from bigbannanabike:

To the OP, this would be a good example of poor, sad, pathetic bike racing etiquette. Please dear Lord, ride your bike more and train smarter to win.

Yup - its up there with some guys who came up out of the pack and asked me to slow it down a bit

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