Page 2 - Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

11-04.-2007, 04:25 AM

#16

J\V

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Tom, my magnet is mounted maybe an inch from the pedal axle, and I haven't had a problems with it that I can tell. That would only give another 3/4" or so to move it back, assuming I keep it inside the pedal axle (which I'd like to do).

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstock

Maybe warnerjh trusted the manual? It says that you must mount the sensor exactly in the middle of the chainstay. But if I recall correctly this is not the case.

Yes, I did follow the directions and mount it exactly in the center, since they seemed to make a point of doing so. It certainly would be more convenient to simply move the sensor rearward to achieve the same effect, if the collective 'we' are sure that it does not matter. Still, even if the chain is just rubbing in the small-small, I'm still right at 30mm difference on the opposite end. I'm more likely to get close to the small-small while riding than the large-large. I hate to get into a situation where I'm avoiding previously usable gears for the purposes of generating 'good' data; I'd say that falls into the 'failure' category.

'jstock' have you had luck downloading the data via IR? I didn't expect to have a problem since my 720 works, but I guess I should perform a 'reset' before troubleshooting much further.

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11-04.-2007, 04:54 AM

#17

Tom Anhalt

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

Why would you like to keep it inside the pedal axle? Just curious.

My magnet is bonded to the side of my crankarm even with the pedal spindle. Moving the module back a full inch will make it easier to achieve the proper chain spacing AND bring the cadence sensor closer to the magnet since the module will be moving outboard as well along the chainstay (because of the angle of the chainstay relative to the bike centerline).

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

Well...I'm not a "collective 'we' "...but I say that it doesn't matter...and I've confirmed this with the inventors of the system. The only reason to try to get the sensor located at the center of the chain span is that this is were the chain vibration amplitude is the greatest. However, if locating it there results in the chain being too far away, that's not helping any. The amplitude of the chain vibration a couple of inches to either side of the center is not going to be reduced by an great amounts...and we're not talking about large amplitudes here anyway. So, it makes a lot more sense to just locate the module where it's close enough to the chain to ensure an adequate signal...center of the stay be damned

I present this "requirement" in the Polar manual as further evidence that the technical folks at Polar TRULY do not understand their own device

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

Still, even if the chain is just rubbing in the small-small, I'm still right at 30mm difference on the opposite end. I'm more likely to get close to the small-small while riding than the large-large. I hate to get into a situation where I'm avoiding previously usable gears for the purposes of generating 'good' data; I'd say that falls into the 'failure' category.

Do you really use the small-small combo gearing? I know that on my bikes it either causes the chain to "tink" on the teeth of the large chainring or rub the front derailluer cage if I try to use my 2 smallest cogs with my small chainring.

Similar problems exist with my 1 or 2 largest cogs and my large chainring. Perhaps my bikes tend to have relatively short chainstays which would make this problem worse, but my main roadbike's chainstay is on the order of 412mm or so, IIRC, which isn't _that_ short.

Here's an idea for you. On one setup of mine that has <400mm long chainstays, I set up the maximum chain spacing so that it was measured in the large chainring - 2nd to largest cog. I did this because on that bike I'd NEVER use the large-large combo do to the extreme nature of the cross-chaining caused by the relatively short stays. Do you use the 53-27 very often, if at all? If not, that could be a compromise you may want to consider.

I've got some pics around of my setup when it was on my Cervelo Soloist. I'll see if I can post them tonight. Perhaps I'll take some new one's of how my module is mounted on my other road bike (Kona Zing Supreme) as well...that may help you see how I put mine together. 3+ years of reliable power readings say that I'm doing *something* right

11-04.-2007, 04:56 AM	#18
Pelotonium Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 14	Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block... Tom, you seem to know what you're talking about. I've worked very hard to get my PPO unit to work consistently, to no avail. May I ask where you got your magnets, and what glue you used to bond them?

11-04.-2007, 05:01 AM	#19
J\V Registered User $J\V's Avatar$ Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lookout Mtn., CO Posts: 160	Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block... As far as the crank goes, I'd just like to keep it away from possible contact with anything, and outside the pedal spindle axis seems a bit more 'exposed'. No other reason. All my gear combos are usable (no rubbing, still have some range of motion), and I don't really use the small-small, although I have for very brief periods. The 53-27 I do not (and will not) use, so I guess I sort of have disregarded it in reference to setting this thing up, even though I quoted the 30mm spacing based upon that gear. __________________ '07 S-Works Tarmac SL, Polar CS600+Power 1992 Trek 5200 OCLV (v.1!) w/Dura-Ace 7700 & Mavic Ksyrium Elites '07 Specialized Epic Marathon w/Crossmax SLRs CycleOps Pro 300PT Indoor Cycle Trainer (my winter ride)
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11-04.-2007, 05:24 AM

#20

jstock

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

'jstock' have you had luck downloading the data via IR? I didn't expect to have a problem since my 720 works, but I guess I should perform a 'reset' before troubleshooting much further.

It works for me. Are you using builtin IRDA or a Polar USB dongle? I actually did some extensive testing to see whether I could get it to work directly with WKO. My results:
S720 works with both builtin IRDA and the S-series dongle for both the Polar software and WKO.
CS600 works with the Polar software with builtin IRDA. S-series dongle does not work (it's not supposed to work, but someone forced me to try it

).

A stupid question maybe, but have you looked at your CS600 to see where the IR port is?

But there is something strange going on. When I disconnect the device, XP still says it's connected for several minutes and the computer becomes sluggish (this does not happen with the S720). But it does work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Anhalt

I present this "requirement" in the Polar manual as further evidence that the technical folks at Polar TRULY do not understand their own device

Actually I don't think it was in the manual, but on a separate note

11-04.-2007, 06:04 AM

#21

Tom Anhalt

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelotonium

Tom, you seem to know what you're talking about. I've worked very hard to get my PPO unit to work consistently, to no avail.

May I ask where you got your magnets, and what glue you used to bond them?

Easy...the magnets I get from my stash of "scrap" prototype samarium cobalt (rare earth) magnets in my office at work

I'm lucky to have this easy source for some REALLY strong magnets...but a quick search online should find you some sources of some pretty easily as well.

The "glue" is just DAP contact cement...the kind you get at the hardware store in the little brown bottle (with the brush built into the cap and all). I had some left over from my "heat shrink mylar" wheel cover project, and just decided to try it out. It works great. I've got some magnets that have been glued on for almost 3 years without a problem...and I've glued them to both aluminum and carbon crankarms. The nice thing is that if you need to pop them off for some reason later, the contact cement is soft enough still so that you can do it without damaging the magnet or the crankarm.

Oh yeah...here's another tip on the crank magnet, especially if you're using a "non-supplied" magnet. I discovered that the cadence sensor (a reed switch) is much more sensitive to the magnetic field "across" the poles of the magnet, rather than "in line" with the poles. In other words, don't point the north or south pole of the magnet at the sensor...align the magnet so that the N-S axis of the magnet is parallel with the centerline of the bike. You can have the magnet MUCH further away from the sensor when it's oriented this way.

11-04.-2007, 10:36 AM

#22

J\V

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstock

It works for me. Are you using builtin IRDA or a Polar USB dongle? I actually did some extensive testing to see whether I could get it to work directly with WKO. My results: S720 works with both builtin IRDA and the S-series dongle for both the Polar software and WKO. CS600 works with the Polar software with builtin IRDA. S-series dongle does not work (it's not supposed to work, but someone forced me to try it

).

A stupid question maybe, but have you looked at your CS600 to see where the IR port is?

Yes, I looked, it 's the first thing I checked, since it wasn't obvious where to point it.

I'm (unfortunately) using W98 through Virtual PC via Mac OS9... believe it or not. W98 isn't even listed as supported for ProTrainer 5. I looked into Polar's new (silver) USB 2.0 thing, but word on the street is that it may only work with Intel based Macs running XP via Parallels (maybe BootCamp, too). I may be hosed on this one, and either have to wait for iSmartTrain support (could be months!) or pony up for a new Intel iMac or el cheapo used PC laptop. Sigh...

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11-04.-2007, 10:42 AM	#23
Spunout Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 622	Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block... Sounds like fun you guys. Who is going to yard-sale this whole thing and get a PT? Looks like a lot of work...

11-04.-2007, 10:49 AM

#24

Tom Anhalt

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunout

Sounds like fun you guys.

Who is going to yard-sale this whole thing and get a PT? Looks like a lot of work...

Oh yeah...as if PTs don't have their own "issues"

11-04.-2007, 11:06 AM

#25

J\V

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunout

Sounds like fun you guys.

Who is going to yard-sale this whole thing and get a PT? Looks like a lot of work...

If a PowerTap were the perfect solution I'd have one (I've got one on my 300PT, and it ain't perfect). So far, the Ergomo Pro is the closest of the bunch, and if they make it wireless, simplify installation issues, and make it compatible with all cranks, that will be the one to have (IMO).

That the PowerTap ignores altitude as a critical cycling parameter is a fatal flaw for me. Without altitude, you can't tell from a PowerTap file whether it was wind that slowed you down a bit, or a change in gradient. While looking at Power/speed curves, saying "Look, there's a hill!" because the speed curve tapered off is a bit prehistoric.

In my oh-so-humble yet narrow-minded opinion...

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11-04.-2007, 04:39 PM

#26

jstock

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunout

Sounds like fun you guys.

It sure is fun. Before I got my CS600 I've used a Polar S720 for two years and I've been reading this forum and Wattage for longer. So I think I made a pretty informed decision. The main reasons for me to choose the Polar over a PT:

Reading all bug reports it's seems highly probable that you'll have to service your PM whether it's a PT or Polar (I haven't had to service mine yet). Polar is a 15 minute ride from where I live. Saris is an ocean away.
I have a Fortius trainer (which I plan to keep). PT does not work with the Fortius. The Polar probably won't work either.
I can use my favorite wheels.

There are some more, minor, things also in favor of the Polar (given my circumstances). I'm not saying that the Polar is the best PM but currently it is what suits my needs the best.

Sure the setup of the Polar is kind of tricky, but to use an hour to set it up and then ride for over 10000 km without any servicing is good enough for me.

I've been using the Polar on my hack bike during the winter riding to work every day through ice, snow, rain, mud, salt, and sand. Straight from the garage where it's 20C to the outside where it can be -15C. I'm not sure if other PM's would like that temperature difference?

If Tacx fix the PT/Fortius bug I will own at least one PT

11-04.-2007, 09:21 PM

#27

jmocallaghan

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

Well, I got it installed (I think?) after some fussing with the Power sensor. Unfortunately, it would appear that this remains the achilles heel for installation, even though it probably only took about an 60-90 minutes total. Without being able to use the thing, it's hard to tell if it's currently set up correctly or not (it does indicate power readings, though haven't yet entered chain data). It was almost impossible to get set up perfectly parallel to the chain line (in any ring/cog configuration), as it would need to be angled in significantly toward the rear hub to be perfect, and I couldn't find a combination with the spacer pads that seemed to work. Also, the directions recommend a ridiculous 2mm space between the chain and power sensor when in the small/small, but the magnet in the sensor sucks the chain to it when closer than about 1/2 to 5/8". Seems like the power sensor is going to have to take a lot of abuse from the chain, and will suck down to it with any amount of slack. I have a feeling I'm going to have to revisit the alignment or spacing of this thing once I get on the bike to use it.

[BTW if anyone has any links for installation tips of the previous unit, I have a feeling the same issues apply, and I'd be grateful for any further info on this.]

At first I thought all the 'slack' in the power cord (going to the pulley) in the small/small would be a problem, but it actually ended up working perfectly when completely zip-tied to the derailleur cable; it's much less conspicuous than I thought it would be, and naturally winds into a little circle that keeps it clear of the spokes. The battery 'cigar' is a bit of a bummer (visually), but oh well... The crank magnet is supposed to be secured with a goofy-lloking piece of Polar tape, but there's no way that's gonna happen. Not sure why they had to mess with their previous ziptie-able magnet, though this magnet is much heftier than any other cadence magnet I've ever used. Speed sensor is a no-brainer, works well, and is smaller than all previous versions.

Installation instructions are marginal at best, and the usage and features 'manual' (if you could even call it that) is positively pathetic. It really gives no info other than the basic setup stuff that is totally intuitive anyway, like height, weight, wheel data, etc. (my S720i at least came with a manual that described all the features and settings). I have a feeling I need to install the software to continue configuring it, but haven't done so yet. Unlike the S720i, there are apparently many setup functions only accessible from the computer. It doesn't even tell you what different 'views' are available on the display, even though it is supposedly somewhat customizable. It simply inane to expect us to go look something up on a computer every time we have a question, especially for a unit with this many features. The display is quite nice, higher resolution than the CS100/200 units.

Did I mention the new WearLink HR transmitter yet? It positively SUCKS!!! Why Polar had to go and 'improve upon' a perfectly functional transmitter design I have no idea. The snaps are ridiculous, since it's questionable as to whether you've got it properly secured. Furthermore, the way the EKG pickups (or whatever) are integrated into the strap now requires wetting with water prior to use. And I do mean WET. I need to find out if my T61 coded strap from the s720i will work or not, but it did not seem give an HR reading. This really is a step backward, all for the apparent convenience of self-changing a battery that only died every 2 years or so...

If anyone has any other experience with this transmitter, please do share, because I'm not looking forward to using this thing.

Anyway, I guess I'm off to install the ProTrainer software and see what headway I can make with entering the chain data, and seeing what functions it has for power (display, etc.).

The T61 will not work with it because it uses a different signaling system (new one is 2.4gHz i.e. bluetooth). It gets better with time....

11-04.-2007, 09:32 PM

#28

jmocallaghan

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

Has anyone out there used a commercial IRDA dongle to download the data or does it need to be a Polar specific IR dongle? I dont have an irda port on my PC.

11-04.-2007, 09:43 PM	#29
jcjordan Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Canberra Posts: 497	Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block... Did I mention the new WearLink HR transmitter yet? It positively SUCKS!!! Why Polar had to go and 'improve upon' a perfectly functional transmitter design I have no idea. The snaps are ridiculous, since it's questionable as to whether you've got it properly secured. Furthermore, the way the EKG pickups (or whatever) are integrated into the strap now requires wetting with water prior to use. And I do mean WET. I need to find out if my T61 coded strap from the s720i will work or not, but it did not seem give an HR reading. This really is a step backward, all for the apparent convenience of self-changing a battery that only died every 2 years or so... If anyone has any other experience with this transmitter, please do share, because I'm not looking forward to using this thing. I replaced my T61 over a year ago to the newer softstrap and have never looked back. There are a couple of things that you need to remember though: 1. Wash the strap regularly. Use a toothbruth or something similar and get into the conections between the strap and the centre unit. Also wash the parts of the strap that act as the sensor concetion to the skin. 2. Just give the sensor are a bit of a lick before you use. Saliva is a better conductor then plain water. Once you start and get sweaty you should have no problems. 3. If you start have problems getting a reading or get some really weird HR readings replace the battery. Mine last 8-9 months, but I ride 350km a week on average. 4. Wear the strap tight, not blood flow restricting, but tight enough that it wont move. I do know that polar have suggest to some of the guys at the club to wear it with the sensor to the side or rear, but I have never had a problem with it centre front. __________________ "Pain does not last, bones heal and chicks dig scars"

11-04.-2007, 10:04 PM

#30

vadiver

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Re: Polar CS600 Power - First on the Block...

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

<snip>
So far, the Ergomo Pro is the closest of the bunch, and if they make it wireless, simplify installation issues, and make it compatible with all cranks, that will be the one to have (IMO).

Would the Ergomo ever be compatable with the DA/07 Campy UT cranks? Or any style crank like that with outboard bearings.

IMPO that design is a more user cost effective solution. To be able to buy a $20 "bottom bracket" instead of a $150+ or the new power unit, when the BB wears out is the better way to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by warnerjh

That the PowerTap ignores altitude as a critical cycling parameter is a fatal flaw for me. Without altitude, you can't tell from a PowerTap file whether it was wind that slowed you down a bit, or a change in gradient. While looking at Power/speed curves, saying "Look, there's a hill!" because the speed curve tapered off is a bit prehistoric.

I am thinking of getting a PM and right now leaning towards the PT. This gradient flaw is the only thing I do not like about the PT. The other suppliers have more "flaws" that I do not want either. It should probably be another thread in itself but how big a deal is the gradient problem?

Unless the unit uses an inclometer (instead of Barometric pressure) the accuracy can be way off. I rode through a frount last year that when I downloaded my data I was on a huge slope. Cool to plot, but worthless otherwise.

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