what is iran thinking???

EoinC

If I were a fish swimming around Muraroa Atoll, I may think differently...Maybe, but France was the last nation to carry out a Government-sponsored military attack on New Zealand. I can't remember the last time the Iranians attacked us - must've been before '85.
Don't worry, V, I'm just being facetious, but I do have around zero percent faith that the French Government would ever consider my interests in any decision that they made. They've certainly taken a front seat when it comes to supply of armaments to some of the less savoury leaders of various factions.

Carrera

I think this is a classic case of all the right not being on one side. I'm no fan of Iran and would support moves to disarm their nuclear aspirations. However, having said that, it's not fair to demand Iran complies over the nuclear issue till we in the West admit we have no real business in the Gulf and in Iraq. I think the "mistakes" over the WMD issue should be addressed and troops removed from Iraq.
Iran should be pressured into dropping the nuclear program, once they no longer feel threatened and boxed in.
I recall Clinton urged Yeltsin to negotiate and compromise over Chechnya so why not negotiate with Iran before the missiles start to fly. The snag here is if the U.S. had Iranian troops patrolling Cuban seas, the U.S. would equally find the situation intolerable (as in the days of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
I did detect some humiliation of those prisoners evident but imagine the uproar if they'd been paraded on T.V. at the end of a dog-leash or covered in fake electrodes while hooded.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Virenque

Do you really think you can negotiate with Iran? It looks like you can`t. They don`t need food, oil and electricity like North Korea. They function normally.
Also, with France I ment all countries with nuclear weapons that are not a threat and nobody wants to disarm them. That`s why I don`t want to continue this "french" topic..

Carrera

The Iraq War was built on a tissue of lies and it was plain wrong. As a knock on effect it (the war) led to the election of an unpleasant, extremist hardliner in Iran when maybe (had it not been for Iraq) we might have seen a far more liberal Government in Iran.
Vladimir Putin made the very same comment some weeks ago.
We've seen so many things in Iraq that are inexcusable: Humiliation of Iraqi captives by the Coalition, instability within the country, loss of freedom for women, looting of works of art and antiquities (now being traded in London).
In many ways, it reminds me of the slave trade all over again. I don;t think 80 Iraqi deaths every day through the current instability is worth it. Neither do I figure 18.000 wounded U.S. marines is worth overthrowing Saddam for (who ran Iraq better than the Coalition and also stood up to Iran).
Personally I don't wish to see a nuclear Iran but this is now a mess of Bush's making.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Bro Deal

It's just that your views are so far divorced from reality it is rather hard to find something to say. It would be like attempting to convince Tom Cruise that Scientology is a scam. Anyone who can claim there were no lies about Iraq is a lost cause.

International law does not allow an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation. It was illegal. You have to love the new defense of the Iraq debacle: The blame the victim defense. Gosh, it's the Iraqis fault. There is an insurgency, and the people are not better than before. Under Saddam you were okay as long as you kept your head down and did not attempt to overthrow the government. Under the Bush/Blair regime, no one can feel comfortable sending their wife to the market. Fighting against occupation is not only perfectly legal, it is honorable.

Yeah, that's the ticket. It's the media's fault. They are not showing all the wonderful progress that has been made. When Cheney tried that line he was laughed at. Looks like it's alive and well, though.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Virenque

That`s a problem and it`s a very big problem and it will be even a bigger problem tomorrow! We have to fight people who`re doing that! Coallition forces don`t kill innocent civilians. They don`t destroy government buildings (yes, they did in the first month of invasion but they rebuilt it with their own money), mosques, homes of innocent civilians, cargo planes, bridges, and so on. They try very hard to protect all that! Just remember what happened: before 9/11 there were no war and Bush was in office for only 3/4 of a year. Then came 9/11, they went to Afghanistan and fight against Al-Qaeda there. Then they went to Iraq and Al-Qaeda & co. was already there (do you really think they came later?). If not, they came from Syria and Iran (so someone has to support them there or they just don`t try to stop them). That`s a problem with that region and not with a president Bush. Never forget how and when all started. We have to end terrorism as soon as possible. Poor Iraqis are paying "taxes" for a war against terrorism. I can`t say all innocent deaths are worth it but as you can see there is no other choice - because of terrorists!

Virenque

Is it perfectly legal to kill innocent civilians which are fellow citizens as well? They killed cca. 3500 coallition forces and half a million (?) of civilians. Both honorable?

Bro Deal

The brits have a recent history of telling outright lies to justify the invasion of Iraq. Bush and his lackey Blair want to attack Iran, and they have shown they are willing to fabricate out of whole cloth a reason for a war. The Iranians don't have anything to gain, the brits do. I would bet my money on the Iranians on this one.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Bro Deal

Oh, really? Even Bush admits to more than 30K Iraqi deaths. Deaths reported in the media are over 60K. The Iraqis recently placed the totals at 155K. A huge percentage were killed by coalition troops. The brits have been mad as hell from the beginning because the Americans are trigger happy and hteir lack of control has made the environment more dangerous for the brits.

The Americans have killed vast numbers of innocent people. Standard operating procedure seems to be to gun down anyone near an IED when it goes off. U.S. military procedure for securing houses has been to kill all males of military age. When the U.S. destroyed Fallujah, they first kicked out the journalists and secured the hospitals so no news would leak out about the number of people killed like it did when they first attacked the city.

Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda. Nothing. Repeat after me: Nothing. Even you imperious leader Bush admits that. The Al Queda allegations were outright lies told by the Bush administration to justify the war.

When are you going to end the terrorism of Bush and Blair? They have killed more innocent people than Bin Laden could dream of.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Colorado Ryder

Do you have any sources for this allegation?

Virenque

So where did Al Qaeda in Iraq came from?
And I have the same question as Colorado Ryder..

Bro Deal

Recent prosecutions of U.S. military tell the story. Testimony has soldiers saying they had orders to kill all military age males when securing buildings and collections of houses. The officers don't deny the orders but argue that they did not apply to people who had surrendered, which is what the soldiers are being prosecuted for. The testimony is full of intersting tidbits like Iraqis being shot through their kitchen doors while they stood in their own homes making breakfast. The U.S. have adopted rules of engagement that value a single U.S. soldier's life over any number of Iraqis, hositle or innocent. This sort of trigger happy murder has fueled the insurgency.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Bro Deal

Its actual persons came from the outside. The philosophy was no longer held in check when Saddam was removed, so it grew naturally in the people fighting the brutal occupation of their country. Getting rid of Saddam was like removing a cork in a champagne bottle. Stability and securing their rule by eliminating the opposition, like Al-Qaeda in the case of the Middle East, are two of the primary jobs of any dictatorship.

Al-Qaeda is the enemy of the dictatorships of the Middle East. They wanted Saddam gone. The only reason Al-Qaeda is attacking the West is that they determined that in order to get the West to stop propping up arab dictators they had to make the West pay a price for it. If the West stops meddling in muslim affairs, then no more Al-Qaeda problems.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Colorado Ryder

Again what is the source?

Any clear proof?

Testimony in a trial and you accept that as truth?