American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

Colorado Ryder

Maybe you should ask the Holy Father or the next time you're at Mass ask someone. Given the fact that the catechism is official church doctrine I'm surprised you are still arguing this. And to be clear #191 should be specific enough for you. It tells that the creeds are articles and as such we must believe particularly and distinctly.

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

THE CREEDS

185 Whoever says "I believe" says "I pledge myself to what we believe." Communion in faith needs a common language of faith, normative for all and uniting all in the same confession of faith.

186 From the beginning, the apostolic Church expressed and handed on her faith in brief formula normative for all.1 But already very early on, the Church also wanted to gather the essential elements of her faith into organic and articulated summaries, intended especially for candidates for Baptism:
This synthesis of faith was not made to accord with human opinions, but rather what was of the greatest importance was gathered from all the Scriptures, to present the one teaching of the faith in its entirety. And just as the mustard seed contains a great number of branches in a tiny grain, so too this summary of faith encompassed in a few words the whole knowledge of the true religion contained in the Old and the New Testaments.2

187 Such syntheses are called "professions of faith" since they summarize the faith that Christians profess. They are called "creeds" on account of what is usually their first word in Latin: credo ("I believe"). They are also called "symbols of faith".

188 The Greek word symbolon meant half of a broken object, for example, a seal presented as a token of recognition. The broken parts were placed together to verify the bearer's identity. The symbol of faith, then, is a sign of recognition and communion between believers. Symbolon also means a gathering, collection or summary. A symbol of faith is a summary of the principal truths of the faith and therefore serves as the first and fundamental point of reference for catechesis.

189 The first "profession of faith" is made during Baptism. The symbol of faith is first and foremost the baptismal creed. Since Baptism is given "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit",3 the truths of faith professed during Baptism are articulated in terms of their reference to the three persons of the Holy Trinity.

190 And so the Creed is divided into three parts: "the first part speaks of the first divine Person and the wonderful work of creation; the next speaks of the second divine Person and the mystery of his redemption of men; the final part speaks of the third divine Person, the origin and source of our sanctification."4 These are "the three chapters of our [baptismal] seal".5

191 "These three parts are distinct although connected with one another. According to a comparison often used by the Fathers, we call them articles. Indeed, just as in our bodily members there are certain articulations which distinguish and separate them, so too in this profession of faith, the name articles has justly and rightly been given to the truths we must believe particularly and distinctly."6 In accordance with an ancient tradition, already attested to by St. Ambrose, it is also customary to reckon the articles of the Creed as twelve, thus symbolizing the fullness of the apostolic faith by the number of the apostles.7

192 Through the centuries many professions or symbols of faith have been articulated in response to the needs of the different eras: the creeds of the different apostolic and ancient Churches,8 e.g., the Quicumque, also called the Athanasian Creed;9 the professions of faith of certain Councils, such as Toledo, Lateran, Lyons, Trent;10 or the symbols of certain popes, e.g., the Fides Damasi11 or the Credo of the People of God of Paul VI.12

193 None of the creeds from the different stages in the Church's life can be considered superseded or irrelevant. They help us today to attain and deepen the faith of all times by means of the different summaries made of it.
Among all the creeds, two occupy a special place in the Church's life:

194 The Apostles' Creed is so called because it is rightly considered to be a faithful summary of the apostles' faith. It is the ancient baptismal symbol of the Church of Rome. Its great authority arises from this fact: it is "the Creed of the Roman Church, the See of Peter the first of the apostles, to which he brought the common faith".13

195 The Niceno-Constantinopolitan or Nicene Creed draws its great authority from the fact that it stems from the first two ecumenical Councils (in 325 and 381). It remains common to all the great Churches of both East and West to this day.

196 Our presentation of the faith will follow the Apostles' Creed, which constitutes, as it were, "the oldest Roman catechism". The presentation will be completed however by constant references to the Nicene Creed, which is often more explicit and more detailed.

197 As on the day of our Baptism, when our whole life was entrusted to the "standard of teaching",14 let us embrace the Creed of our life-giving faith. To say the Credo with faith is to enter into communion with God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and also with the whole Church which transmits the faith to us and in whose midst we believe:
This Creed is the spiritual seal, our heart's meditation and an ever-present guardian; it is, unquestionably, the treasure of our soul.15

limerickman

.........but I'm asking you.
You're telling us that it is an article of faith.

Yet, everyday at Mass, throughout the world, the liturgy of the Mass and the profession of faith, doesn't use the Apostles Creed.

Nor does the Nicean Creed, which is used at Mass everyday throughout the world, refer anywhere to Jesus and hell.
Given the fact that the Mass is the re-enactment of Jesus being crucified, His death and His resurrection.




......................but is omitted from the Mass - nor is it contained in the profession of faith.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

I'm not telling you, the Roman Catholic catechism is telling you it is an article of faith. How much more proof do you need?
If you have a problem with it, discuss it with your Father at the next Mass.

limerickman

It's not an article of faith.

If it was an article of faith it would be part of the Profession of Faith recited at Mass - in which Roman Catholics state the tenets of their faith.

And if it was an article of faith, the Vatican would have it included as part of the Liturgy of the Mass.




I don't have a problem with it.

I do disagree with the many of the incorrect assertions which you have made throughout this thread.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

Are you saying the Catechism of the Catholic Church is incorrect. Tell your Father that it is incorrect at the next Mass.
Do you mean the incorrect assertion that I proved by citing the catechism as irrefutable proof?

By the way, still waiting for your other reasons why Christ descended into hell.(Remember you stated that in message #55). Just a reference from the catechism would be ok.

limerickman

I'm saying that your contention that it's an article of faith - is incorrect.
If it was an article of faith - it would be contained in the profession of faith which is recited at all Roman Catholic Masses throughout the world.




see above.



In message 50, you made several incorrect assertions concerning Jesus descent in to hell - that's what I pointed out to you in message 55.

I would strongly suggest that you consult a priest to enquire as to why there is no reference to Jesus being in Hell in the Roman Catholic Mass nor in the Nicean Creed used in all Roman Catholic Masses throughout the world.


As an aside, some of the Reformed Churches do refer to Jesus descending in to Hell as part their liturgies

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

garyj

I'm enjoying the exchange here. An important distinction is that FAITH includes at least two conceipts. There are ARTICLES OF FAITH - a statement of a belief system and there is the FAITH that is inherent in a commitment. One is most related to head knowledge and the other to heart experience. I've heard it said that some people will make it to heaven in spite of what they believe. If that's the case, it's probably because their heart is more right than their head is.

ilpirata

Lim I am afraid you are mistaken here. The Nicene creed is the more common creed recited at mass, but the apostles creed is occasionaly used in it's place. The Apostles creed is used during Lent at our parish, I imagine it is thus used throughout the world, but I am not sure of this. It is also the creed recited in the Rosary and in other devotional prayers.

With regard to whether a non Christian goes to heaven, the church does not say this is impossible. Only that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Remember the people that recognised and emplored him at the gates of heaven saying, "Lord Lord let us pass" and he responded "I do not know you"
and the others he let pass saying "When I was naked you gave me clothes, when I was hungry you gave me drink, when I was cold you gave me shelter" and they "Lord when did we do this for you?" and He "Whenever you did it for the least of my brothers, it was the same as for me"
So I believe it is this simple; the just and virtuous non-Christian, even though deprived of full knowledge of how God has worked in history, by the circumstances of their existence, or the falsehoods that have been imposed upon them, will non the less after death, come to know that Jesus Christ has saved them, and having received this grace, can not help but be Christian at that point.

limerickman

The Nicene Creed is used here, every Sunday and each feast day, in the Liturgy of the Mass.
The Nicene Creed is used in our parish during Lent as well.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

ilpirata

Looking it up on Wikepedia, it is altogether possible what you say is true (that in your experience it is not used at mass). They give a good discussion on the origins of the creed, it predates the Nicene creed. The Nicene creed was an expansion of the Apostles creed, that had the purpose of refuting Arianism among other things, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles_Creed



from which I copy also:
Roman Catholic Profession of Faith at Mass

The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed is given first place in the text of the Roman Missal; but "the baptismal symbol of the Church of Rome, called the Apostles' Creed" may be used in its place, "especially in Lent and Eastertide" (Ordinary of the Mass, 19). The latter Creed is generally preferred also at Masses for children.

Carrera

As I said, I used to attend a church myself and was once involved in the evangelical denomination. That was before my change of attitude towards religious faith which, to summarize, means I didn't go on to exclude the possibility of God exisiting but no longer follow any organized religion.
Here is what I was taught as an evangelical. I don't know how close it is to Catholicism.
We were taught Christ died for our sins as a sacrifice so salvation came from believing Christ was the son of God, equal to the Father and Holy Spirit, i.e. the Trinity.
We were taught that only those who believed in the Gospel were saved.
We were taught that the Devil and Hell existed.
More worryingly we were taught eternal damnation and hell fire awaited us unless we accepted Christ was the son of God and died for our sins.
I sense the dispute between yourself and Rider means Rider's views seem to come closer to those of my old Church while your own views seem to be more "liberal" and less "rigid".
So what we seem to have is the very typical scenario of a case of one Christian who leaves scripture open to some flexibility and another Christian who's stricter with regard to the literal side.
Seeing as the discussion is interesting for those of us who are following it, I hope you two guys keep the discussion going while keeping it friendly (and keeping a sense of humour).
Besides, as I said, I haven't noticed any signs of extremism on the soapbox from the folks who are Christians.
Nope, what tends to get up my nose is some of the American posters on other websites who keep writing "Amen!" at the finish of their posts, declaring stuff like "blessed be God!", "Praise be!" and the list goes on. Yet the theme we're supposed to be discussing on those occasions has nothing to do with religion.
Fortunately Colorado Rider and Wolfix seem to refrain from this kind of activity which comes as a relief. I don't mind folks declaring they're Christians or Moslems or Orthodox Jews openly and I have no intention of ridiculing folk over their beliefs.
It's just all these "Amens", "Hallelujahs" and what have you on other sites strikes me as way way over the top.
I worry about this current wave of religious fervour in the U.S.A. lately. I suspect it's getting somewhat out of hand.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Bro Deal

I do find this stuff rather interesting. Being an atheist and all, it's rather pointless to me; but I find it quite interesting that people argue over interpretations of things based on faith, which without evidence are ultimately unknowable and unprovable.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Carrera

This comes from the Apocalypse of Peter. It's a description of what awaits non-believers (so watch out Dave M.C.!!) Scroll way down and read the descriptions.
Reading this kind of scare-mongering and psychological blackmail (below), I find myself horrified.
Note, how the scenes of torment are praised as being "righteous" and that these folks are supposedly to be tormented for matters of lesbianism or abortion or simply adultery.
Now I ask the logical question: Are we really to believe that free-thinking human beings are to eternally tortured because they happen to, er, enjoy sex out of marriage (as other animals do), choose not to believe in a 2000 year old event or made a balanced judgement and choose not to believe in God?
Many people claim religion is filled with messages of peace and that Jesus, above all, represnted the true image of a loving creator. Yet, according to Ragi Omar, even Jesus refers to a Syro Phoenician woman as a "dog" because she wasn't of similar race to the Apostles. That is, he says it wouldn't be right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs.
Ragi goes on to explain how racially offensive the term "dog" was in ancient times yet U.S, evangelicals believe every word in the Bible is to be taken literally.
So, what gives?

Apocalypse oO Peter:

24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery.

And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place.

25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement.

26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion.
27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness.

29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses.

30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. [This is suggested by the LXX of two passages in Job: xli. 30, his bed is of sharp spits; viii. 17, on an heap of stones doth he rest, and shall live in the midst of gravel-stones.] And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God.

31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury.

32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman.

33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment....

34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God."

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

Reading the above, you can see why it was the Romans considered all of this a source of trouble and provocation. The Romans were known for their tolerance of diversity, sexual liberty, freedom of belief and worship and tolerance.
Little wonder that the preachings against sex and threats of hellfire irritated the Roman authorities and led to tensions (the first being under Nero).
There were complaints from married Senators that their wives were giving up sex after joining Churches and taking vows of celibacy. This is why the Romans got a wee bit upset.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."