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07-03.-2007, 09:19 AM
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#61 | |
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
"633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God."
This definitely dated prior to Christianity (Hell). The Romans believed Pluto descended into the infernal regions which is why they had a guy drag slain gladiators from the arena, dressed as Pluto. But these games were taking place at the time of Sulla or Caesar before the birth of Christ. hell was nothing new in the ancient world - even Vergil writes of it. Most pre-Christians religions had a Hell. Also the Catholic Mass was more than likely borrowed from Greek Mysterly religions in which wine was symbolic. The Virgin Mary also seemed to originate from the Magna Mater which can be found on Google. Quote:
__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept." |
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07-03.-2007, 09:30 AM
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#62 | |
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
Quote:
Carrera, you're being duped here. The Roman Catholic Mass - and in particular the Creed - makes no mention of Jesus descending in to hell. All Roman Catholics know this.
__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF morelike hypocrisy. |
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07-03.-2007, 10:33 AM
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#63 |
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 341
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
[QUOTE
636 By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14). 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.[/QUOTE] Nice piece of research here Colorado. I don't think it necessarily follows however that those who have not accepted the gospel and salvation of Jesus do not get into to heaven, or that their entry negates the death of Jesus. Because the just, who died before the time of Jesus, are freed according to the Catechism you've shown us. The practicing Catholic has the advantage of the fullness of revelation, but can still fall. His faith must show itself in the rejection of sin, works of charity, etc., It is quite possible a devout non-Catholic, or non-Christian can surpass him by living a just life, and be recognized and saved by Jesus. Purgatory is availabe for the cleansing away of imperfections and sins (all but mortal sin) by the grace of God, and the sacrifice of Jesus. |
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07-03.-2007, 12:41 PM
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#64 | |
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
Quote:
Only Limerickman is duping people. Or perhaps he just is unfamiliar with the Catholic catechism. Perhap's he has never heard of the Apostle's Creed. It is part of the Church's catechism. If you don't believe it here is the Vatican's own website. http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm Scroll down to Section 2 Chapter 2 Article 5. Seems the Roman Catholic church specifically talks about Christ descending into hell in the Apostle's Creed. All Roman Catholics know this, well almost all. |
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07-03.-2007, 02:54 PM
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#65 |
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
It's getting like the Sunni versus the Shia in here. Let's hope Colorado doesn't break out the IEDs.
__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates |
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07-03.-2007, 05:01 PM
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#66 | |
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
Quote:
Where in the Roman Catholic Mass does the words "Jesus descended in to hell appear"?? The Roman Catholic Mass celebrated everyday across the world makes no mention of Jesus descending in to hell. If Jesus' descent in to hell is an article of faith - why is it not mentioned in the profession of faith, Creed, which is recited at every Mass, every day, across the world? Nor is there any mention of people, who believe in God, being sent to hell and having to await salvation in the Mass. In addition, as Il Parata (and I) has suggested, the RCC has stated that non-Catholics are not prevented from salvation.
__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF morelike hypocrisy. |
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08-03.-2007, 12:15 AM
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#67 | |||
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
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There is more to the Roman Catholic Church than Mass. If you took the time to read the Catechism, which is the official Roman Catholic doctrine, then you would know. I provided irrefutable proof that the Roman Catholic Church believes that Christ descended into Hell and retrieved those that were worthy of heaven. Quote:
It is in the Apostle's Creed. And as mentioned before it is in the Roman Catholic Catechism. And it is an article of faith. Maybe you should read the link. Quote:
Nice play on words. Non-Catholics are not prevented from salvation. All people are able to have salvation provided they believe in Christ. |
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08-03.-2007, 12:48 AM
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#68 | |
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
Quote:
No IED's. This will be the last time I post on this. I provided proof that the Roman Catholic Church believes Christ descended into Hell and why he descended into Hell. If Limerickman doesn't want to believe that part of the Roman Catholic Catechism then that is up to him. He can look idiotic trying to disprove what has been proven by links provided to the Vatican and the Holy Father. Here is the link again. http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm |
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08-03.-2007, 04:37 AM
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#69 | |
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
There is a mystery religion that came way before Christianity and involved the idea of resurrection of a deity. Christianity, to my mind, wasn't really as novel or new as has been imagined.
Note below the idea of the "underworld" with Persephone as Queen of these lower, infernal regions. This was well before the time of Christ. Also you have the Greek Zeus who rescues his son Dionysus after the demons (or Titans) killed the son. Zeus here is the father. Ancient religion has always had this concept of a father and a son who are divine, a lower world, a trip by a deity to the lower world and his victory over the demons of this infernal world. I believe the big mistake made in modern times is to view Christianity outside the context of its influences which are, Greek Mystery religion, Judaism and philosophy as well as the general acceptance of miracles in the ancient world. "Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Persephone, the queen of the underworld. A jealous Hera again attempted to kill the child, this time by sending Titans to rip Dionysus to pieces after luring the baby with toys. Zeus drove the Titans away with his thunderbolts, but only after the Titans ate everything but the heart, which was saved, variously, by Athena, Rhea, or Demeter. Zeus used the heart to recreate him in the womb of Semele, hence he was again "the twice-born". Sometimes people said that he gave Semele the heart to eat to impregnate her. The rebirth in both versions of the story is the primary reason he was worshipped in mystery religions, as his death and rebirth were events of mystical reverence. This narrative was apparently used in certain Greek and Roman mystery religions. Variants of it are found in Callimachus and Nonnus, who refer to this Dionysus under the title Zagreus, and also in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus." Quote:
__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept." |
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08-03.-2007, 04:50 AM
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#70 | |
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
I dare say Fred C would see the funny side of this. You know, to be honest I've never seen any problems arising from Limerickman's and Colorado Rider's convictions of faith. Neither of them has ever pushed their beliefs on other folks via their postings and they're now debating the issue only on account of the question that's been raised.
They both come across as reasonable people, not fanatics, but it seems they don't agree on this particular point. Nope, I was referring to situations where we're discussing, say, global warming on other websites and somebody starts posting about Jesus or yelling out insults at Cameron over his film. This happened elsewhere. At any rate, let's keep this discussion healthy and rational as, thus far, Wolfix, Lim, C.R. and all the other Catholics on this site have always seemed to me to be down-to-earth and certainly not Holy Rollers. I can see Lim has a point that the idea of hellfire is extreme (what I was getting at) but Colorado Rider seems to be stressing the Orthodox Christian view that non-believers aren't saved. Quote:
__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept." |
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08-03.-2007, 07:48 AM
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#71 | |||
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Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
Quote:
I never said that there wasn't more to the Roman Catholic Church than Mass. What I did take issue with was your inaccurate interpretations of a number of RCC teachings with regard to Salvation, St John's Gospel, etc. I disputed the fact that if the issue of Jesus descent in to hell was a matter of faith, that this would be included in the Mass where Roman Catholics, every day throughout the world, recite their Profession of Faith in the Nicean Creed and not the Apostles Creed. Nowhere in the Nicean Creed or the Mass is there any reference to Jesus being in hell. Given the fact that the Mass is the re-enactment of Jesus being crucified, His death and His resurrection. Quote:
..........so why then, if it is an article of faith, does the Apostles Creed form no part of the Mass - given the fact that the Mass is the re-enactment of Jesus being crucified, His death and His resurrection? And why doesn't the Nicean Creed that is used at Mass, every day throughout the world, not contain any reference to hell? Quote:
Yeah, you did concede this point earlier in your reply to Carerra that non-Catholics/Christians can be saved - despite your initial insistence (John Chapter 14, Verse 6).
__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF morelike hypocrisy. |
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08-03.-2007, 07:59 AM
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#72 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,229
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
Quote:
PART ONE THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH THE CREEDS 185 Whoever says "I believe" says "I pledge myself to what we believe." Communion in faith needs a common language of faith, normative for all and uniting all in the same confession of faith. 186 From the beginning, the apostolic Church expressed and handed on her faith in brief formula normative for all.1 But already very early on, the Church also wanted to gather the essential elements of her faith into organic and articulated summaries, intended especially for candidates for Baptism: This synthesis of faith was not made to accord with human opinions, but rather what was of the greatest importance was gathered from all the Scriptures, to present the one teaching of the faith in its entirety. And just as the mustard seed contains a great number of branches in a tiny grain, so too this summary of faith encompassed in a few words the whole knowledge of the true religion contained in the Old and the New Testaments.2 187 Such syntheses are called "professions of faith" since they summarize the faith that Christians profess. They are called "creeds" on account of what is usually their first word in Latin: credo ("I believe"). They are also called "symbols of faith". 188 The Greek word symbolon meant half of a broken object, for example, a seal presented as a token of recognition. The broken parts were placed together to verify the bearer's identity. The symbol of faith, then, is a sign of recognition and communion between believers. Symbolon also means a gathering, collection or summary. A symbol of faith is a summary of the principal truths of the faith and therefore serves as the first and fundamental point of reference for catechesis. 189 The first "profession of faith" is made during Baptism. The symbol of faith is first and foremost the baptismal creed. Since Baptism is given "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit",3 the truths of faith professed during Baptism are articulated in terms of their reference to the three persons of the Holy Trinity. 190 And so the Creed is divided into three parts: "the first part speaks of the first divine Person and the wonderful work of creation; the next speaks of the second divine Person and the mystery of his redemption of men; the final part speaks of the third divine Person, the origin and source of our sanctification."4 These are "the three chapters of our [baptismal] seal".5 191 "These three parts are distinct although connected with one another. According to a comparison often used by the Fathers, we call them articles. Indeed, just as in our bodily members there are certain articulations which distinguish and separate them, so too in this profession of faith, the name articles has justly and rightly been given to the truths we must believe particularly and distinctly."6 In accordance with an ancient tradition, already attested to by St. Ambrose, it is also customary to reckon the articles of the Creed as twelve, thus symbolizing the fullness of the apostolic faith by the number of the apostles.7 192 Through the centuries many professions or symbols of faith have been articulated in response to the needs of the different eras: the creeds of the different apostolic and ancient Churches,8 e.g., the Quicumque, also called the Athanasian Creed;9 the professions of faith of certain Councils, such as Toledo, Lateran, Lyons, Trent;10 or the symbols of certain popes, e.g., the Fides Damasi11 or the Credo of the People of God of Paul VI.12 193 None of the creeds from the different stages in the Church's life can be considered superseded or irrelevant. They help us today to attain and deepen the faith of all times by means of the different summaries made of it. Among all the creeds, two occupy a special place in the Church's life: 194 The Apostles' Creed is so called because it is rightly considered to be a faithful summary of the apostles' faith. It is the ancient baptismal symbol of the Church of Rome. Its great authority arises from this fact: it is "the Creed of the Roman Church, the See of Peter the first of the apostles, to which he brought the common faith".13 195 The Niceno-Constantinopolitan or Nicene Creed draws its great authority from the fact that it stems from the first two ecumenical Councils (in 325 and 381). It remains common to all the great Churches of both East and West to this day. 196 Our presentation of the faith will follow the Apostles' Creed, which constitutes, as it were, "the oldest Roman catechism". The presentation will be completed however by constant references to the Nicene Creed, which is often more explicit and more detailed. 197 As on the day of our Baptism, when our whole life was entrusted to the "standard of teaching",14 let us embrace the Creed of our life-giving faith. To say the Credo with faith is to enter into communion with God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and also with the whole Church which transmits the faith to us and in whose midst we believe: This Creed is the spiritual seal, our heart's meditation and an ever-present guardian; it is, unquestionably, the treasure of our soul.15 |
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08-03.-2007, 08:04 AM
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#73 | ||
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Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
Quote:
Issues of tenets of faith and belief are emotive subjects. I suppose it depends on the individuals. Quote:
Let me clarify for you, Carerra. I am not disputing the existence of hell - for all Roman Catholics, hell exists. What I have disputed with Rider is his interpretation of RCC teaching, who can be saved according to St John's Gospel, the content of the Creed used in the Mass.
__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF morelike hypocrisy. |
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08-03.-2007, 08:07 AM
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#74 | ||
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,229
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
Quote:
Let's not twist words. I said people who have truly never heard of Christ and children can go to heaven. I'm am curious......in message #55 you stated Quote:
And now you are telling us that Christ didn't descend into hell. If that is your position then what was the purpose of message #55? Can you show us those reasons in the Catholic catechism? |
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08-03.-2007, 08:10 AM
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#75 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,575
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Re: American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb
Quote:
........................so why isn't the Apostles Creed used in the Mass. which is celebrated throughout the world, each and every day? Given the fact that the Mass is the re-enactment of Jesus being crucified, His death and His resurrection.
__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF morelike hypocrisy. |
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