American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

limerickman

My own view is that science and religion aren't mutually exclusive.
One can/should accept the science - where science provides an explanation.

For example, there are some who call themselves Christians who claim that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.
This is patent nonsense.
They take the literal words of the Bible - and deduce the calculation thus.

Science tells us that Earth is 1.4billion years old.

I take Michael Faraday's line - the great English scientist and devote Christian
-- on the issue of science/belief/faith.
He said "the natural laws (science) are in the hand of God.
Scientists are like small children peering under a corner of the carpet - as we roll back the carpet, more is revealed. God allows us to see more - through Science He allows us to understand His universe".

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

jhuskey

Humans are unduly arrogant and wallow in our technical knowledge which fails us daily.
We know much less than what there is to be known.
For every advance that we make I believe that we lose something in our spirit.
Despite this I still feel that there is more good in the world than bad.

__________________
Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike.

garyj

In the "faith chapter" of the Bible it states that, "Faith is the evidence of things unseen...." (Hebrews 11:1) In this verse faith and evidence (the main tool of the sciences) compliment each other. Faith isn't the enemy of science, nor science of faith. Each day gives us the opportunity to experience both and to use them to build a life that benefits others. It would be short sighted to overlook either.

limerickman

Agreed.

But the point made earlier was that there is a radical shift in parts of the USA to try to over ride scientific fact, and to replace it with Christian dogma.
This sort of shift isn't good - on a number of levels.
It's a move back to the dark ages.

Church and State should be kept separate ay all times.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

bigpedaler

i think we've gotten just a bit sideways here...the OP was about the new tomb story, not the validity of faith vs. science -- that one will never go away.

to be scientific about it -- the folks who deny or question Jesus' existence can't too well say this story has any truth to it, can they? and the ones who say that He wasn't like the Bible claims aren't going to find any support here, either...because there's no way to validate any DNA that may be found! and those who accept the Bible as fact are already dismissing the story as another attack on their faith -- some with undue vehemence, as if their own faith is so shallow that it could be destroyed by the tomb saga.

personally, if these yahoos want to waste/spend their time with this tomb, it'll keep them busy, and their loved ones fed; i'm not going to change my view about anything. people in general are still screwups (i'm not excluding myself here, either), as they have been throughout history. those of you that would say "look at '_______________'(your favorite achievement of man)", i will say this, quoting the movie:

"the sun even shines on a dog's a** once in a while."

stop taking yourselves so sriously, and life will get 1% easier -- believe me, we need all the help with that we can get!!

__________________
"you may only be one person in the world -- but you may just be THE WORLD to one person."

Bro Deal

I don't think I could disagree anymore than I do to this. Perhaps it is because I would have diad on two separate occassions if it weren't for medical advances made within twenty years of the time they benefitted me, but I don't buy into the any ambiguous loss of spirit due to scientific advances. It is easy to see what life would be like without our technology. Just go look at one of these sad little tribes that still hang on in little pockets of the world and that still attempt to maintain their traditional lifestyles. Even a couple hundred years ago in Western nations, life was pretty shitty for the majority of citizens.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Carrera

A well-written and logical post, Lim. It demonstrates that you've done some research into the topic and can probably make a decent defence of your views.
Now, here is my take on the theme:
I know Jesus Christ existed. This is beyond doubt. He's mentioned by the Roman writers Tacitus and Suetonius.
Nevertheless, my own view is Jesus was a breakaway leader of mainstream Judaism, possibly a member of the Essene branch which John The Baptist represented. Evidently he acted and spoke in a manner that alienated himself from the Pharisees and Sadducees and fell foul of the authorities.
The fundamental point is the resurrection. I don't believe it ever happened. Of course, I can't prove it didn't happen but this takes me to the next point.
Fundamentalist evangelical churches in the U.S. teach that unless folk believe Jesus was the son of God, equal to the Father and Holy Ghost, this person will go to hell to be tormented in eternity.
This latter assertion is the one I find most irrational. The question begs to be asked: How can a creator (or rational being) expect free-thinking minds to believe as gospel an event that happened in the Middle East 2000 years ago, the account of which probably wouldn't hold up in a modern court of law?
By that I mean, the accounts vary in detail with several reports of sightings of Jesus where he appeared, say, as a gardener and not recognized initially.
My excuse: I wasn't there at the time, the evidence is incomplete and not conclusive and I'm highly skeptical the genuine gospel message that is now bing preached was the same one as had originally been intended.
This matter split Jews, Christians and Moslems apart for centuries so maybe it's a good thing this film is asking some tough questions.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

There was some upset over this tomb matter on another website. Many Americans are irate over the issue - those who've embraced more fundamentalist interpretations of Christianity.
Jewish and Christian archeologists, thus far, haven't made a big deal about the tomb per se as the names inscribed were common place. Plus, the tomb was a fairly wealthy tomb that Joseph couldn't have afforded.
However, it seems like a case of a seed of doubt causing a gut reaction and outcry. This is far from conclusive proof but the claim needs to be analysed and considered before it's refuted.
Before long we'll be seeing folks marching in the streets calling for this movie maker's head.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

limerickman

Again that harks back to the literal interpretation of the Bible, which most of this evangelical churches seem to endorse.
Personally I don't accept that a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ, but who lives a good life, would be condemned to hell.
In fact, Pope John Paul wrote some very interesting words on this same subject.
To paraphrase, if someone leads a good life and has a belief in God, in good conscience, that person enjoys God's favour.



It's the age-old dilemma.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

Does that mean Christ was crucified in vain?

Bro Deal

Dubya does not share your view. I cannot remember if I read it or it was on a Frontline (A U.S. investigative news program) report, but Dubya and his mother were arguing this exact point. Bush felt that you had to accept Jesus in order to get into heaven while his mother expressed your view. They contacted the preacher Billy Grahamn to settle the issue, and he supported Dubya's mother's position. At which point Dubya responded with something akin to, "I still don't accept that."

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

limerickman

No.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

So he disagreed with Billy Graham!
He just can't help himself, can he?

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

Since you claim to a practicing Catholic, how does your belief reconcile with John 14:6? (Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.)