Improving climbing, without actually climbing?

limerickman

Agree with everything you say here - just for emphasis, the body weight part of your equation is crucial.
If you can reduce your weight, this will improve your ability to climb.

BTW, I looked at some stats for climbs in Wicklow : Laragh to the top of the Wicklow Gap is 6kms : good climbing terrain and 8% gradient.
Slieve Mann is another climb : if you can get plenty a couple of weekends climbing these perhaps 2 or 3 times per session this should hold you in goodsted.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Sillyoldtwit

This has been discussed in these forums ad nauseam, however, people still believe you need powerful legs to turn the pedals. This is just not true. In one year I have improved my power on the bike beyond my wildest dreams and have not done one single rep (employing weights) on the legs. Improved power is all down to work on the bike, i.e. L3-L7 depending on your goal. If it is just endurance events you intend to do, then perhaps you could eliminate L6 and L7. I do them however, because I feel they benefit my L4 FT intervals.
I never bother with L2, which to me is a waste of valuable training time. L3 in the winter is perhaps not a bad idea just to keep things oiled. Others I'm sure will disagree but that's my 5 yens worth. TYSON

Oh, and my climbing has improved beyond recognition.

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alpha2k

When I'm preparing for a climbing event on flat or trainer, I do some intervals with candence between 70-80 to get used to the pedaling/breathing rhythm and position.

Cod

Could somebody fill me in on L2, L3 etc, are these heart rate bands, divided into zones according to percentage of max HR? I'm familiar with Aerobic, LT bands but what are L6 and L7?
Thanks
Chris

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Cod
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Sillyoldtwit

Cod I see you have been a member of these forums since 2005. Sorry mate but with all due respect, you haven't read very much, or to be more precise, not enough info about weight training to build power in the quads. This subject has been discussed ad nauseum in these forums, and the general consensus among riders who know what they're talking about is this:

Weight training will not improve your power to weight ratio in the slightest. The time wasted weight training could be better spent on the bike building a bigger engine. That is, structured training with plenty of L4 FTP intervals, and L5 VO2Max intervals and possibly even some L6 work. These will improve your climbing ability without even smelling a mountain.

When you mention weight reduction, then you're talking. Get the pounds off, build a bigger engine employing the training mentioned above. More work on the bike will also serve to help you lose those unwanted pounds, and before you know it you'll be climbing like a mountain goat.

Best of luck with your ride in May! Tyson

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Sillyoldtwit

Chris, first you need to find out what your FTP (Functional threshold power - L4) is.
I assume you don't have a power meter, so the next best thing is to get on a trainer in the gym. Then you have to ride for a full hour at a power you think you can hold for the hour. The last 5 minutes will be the hardest but you should be able to do it without falling off the trainer. Once you've got that, you can do your 2x20 or 2x30 minute intervals (L4) at between 91 and 105 % of your FTP. (with a rest of possibly 5 mins between each interval - not critical)
Initially you will gain a lot from just doing these intervals at around 90% - no need to bust a gut. When you've mastered these, you then work on an entirely different energy system. You do this by doing VO2Max (L5) intervals at up to 120% of FTP. This workout usually means doing 4x5 minutes with a 5 minute rest between each interval. L6 I wouldn't worry about at this stage. That works on another energy system again.
From the above you can see where L3 fits in. I would just do long Sunday rides at L3 but with some L4/L5 work thrown in - especially on the hills and nice long uninterupted flats. L3 is mainly for stamina - getting used to sitting in the saddle for a long time etc. As for L2 I wouldn't bother. The only time I do L2 is for warming up/cooling down in the gym and when I'm out on the road, for watching the birds in the trees. Cheers! Tyson

P.S. Btw, because I don't have a power meter when I'm out on the road, I judge my Level from my breathing. I know from experience in the gym how I breath when doing L4/L5/L6 respectively. Not very scientific I know, but I don't think I'm too far out.

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cnudell

I would like to verify that I understand this correctly...the terminology can be confusing between methodologies...I am using HR monitor, no Power.



So, my max HR is 176 (100%) and my LT is 144 (82% of max)



The question: for this specific training, should I target between 137 (95% of 144) and 151 (105% of 144)?



Thanks.

daveryanwyoming

Assuming your HR is fairly repeatable for similar efforts (I see an awful lot of variation in mine for the same power output measured with a bike PM) then yes, those are good target ranges. In Coggan and Hunter's book they list L4 as 91% to 105% of FTP(one hour power when well rested and highly motivated, for instance during an actual 40km TT) and 95% to 105% of your sustainable one hour HR(same conditions, one hour best effort).

Just beware of both HR lag and HR drift. The lag is because it takes some time for the body to respond by raising HR when you start an interval. You probably won't see 137 bpm for the first two to three minutes or more if you're doing your L4 intervals appropriately. If you try to get your HR up into range right away you'll be going much harder and probably won't be able to complete the desired interval (shoot for at least 10 minutes for each L4 repeat, 20 minutes seems optimal for most folks and I like some 30 to 45 minute efforts at 90% pwr occasionally). I use what I call the 3 minute test even when working with my PM. I ride my interval a bit easier than scheduled for the first three minutes. If the effort seems too hard at minute 3, I'm never going to complete my L4 interval and maybe I just need an easier day. If the effort seems pretty easy at minute 3, I bump the power a bit. Usually well planned L4 intervals feel great for the first two minutes and then settle into steady but reasonable work by minute 3. By minute 18 or 19 they take a lot of concentration but I don't feel like I'm gonna puke.

HR drift occurs if you are heating up or getting dehydrated during your efforts. I suspect there are other reasons, but those are the two that are most obvious. For instance if you do winter work indoors on a trainer you'll typically see your HR climb during your L4 efforts. It might be bang on 95% at minute 4 (remember the lag part) but climb to 110% or more by minute 20. A big cooling fan really helps here as does frequent sips from your water bottle. But it's one of the reasons HR can be a poor choice for guaging work efforts. If you keep backing off your effort to compensate for HR drift you'll end up working below your target power level by the end of the interval. I measure and record my HR while training with my PM and even with a very large fan in an open window (with a cold Wyoming winter outside) I still see some HR drift at steady power.

I used HR to set my work zones for years but now that I see the HR data along with the PM data for the same workouts I'm no longer a fan of HR for any harder efforts (including L4). It's still a good way to judge how fast you recover during rest intervals and not a bad way to limit your efforts on easier days but there are just too many things that influence my HR at steady power output for my tastes. I will never use HR to pace a TT again.

Good luck,
Dave
P.S. Tyson you sound like the professor emeritus there with that savvy L4 and L5 discussion. I bet when you get that PT (I still vote for a cost effective and debugged PT SL with a sharkfin sensor but it's your cash and waiting time ) you'll be posting in terms of ATL/CTL and TSB.

Sillyoldtwit

Dave wrote:


Yes, and you'd better listen to me my boy or you'll be in deep trouble.

Tyson.

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cnudell

I used the gear ratio and cadence (also = speed) to simulate the required effort, and i can repeat this combination at any time.
Yes the HR changes within the interval (10 or 20 min) and reached LT (+/-).

I have the Polar 720 and was considering adding the power but i am not sure if this is a good idea (is it?).

I am also using the Garmin 305 and therefore not interested to add a power device to my carry-on gadgets...

Any opinion regrading the Polar Power? I will use it only on my 'basement' bike/trainer. Not outdoor.